Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 5th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gemmer, for your presentation. Hopefully, questions will allow you to give more information. I'm sure they will.

Thank you both very much for your down-to-earth, hands-on experience.

We'll go directly to the questions, starting with Mr. Anderson for up to seven minutes.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here today.

We've heard stories somewhat similar to this for most of the last six weeks when we've been doing these hearings, but I don't think we have heard anything as specific as what you've talked about.

We've talked at different times about the process, and we've talked about the amount of regulation. I'm going to ask you a question I've asked a couple of other people. Is there an issue with the process, or do we just have too much regulation? The process can be fixed. Is there just too much regulation, or is it a combination of the two?

I'll ask you to keep your answers fairly short, because we don't have a lot of time.

[Bradley Gemmer]

If you're asking me, I understand that the regulations in British Columbia, which used to be terribly onerous, are now substantially less so than they are in the Yukon. The Yukon has to go through the Indian and Northern Affairs Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board, or YESAB, process, which involves the first nations as well as the local non-first nations.

I have a file here, to give you an idea. Every piece of paper relates to business. This is basically for the last two years, and I have more. But each one involved a cost—

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Is that one project?

[Bradley Gemmer]

That's the only one, which I just spoke of. The regulation is part of it, but it isn't just the one-stop shopping. It's multiple-stop shopping, and then you go through the whole works only to have something like this happen. I worked under a water licence for 12 years and somebody decided to change the circumstances of everything I did.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. We'll come back to that in a minute.

Mr. Sibbeston.

[Glen Sibbeston]

To answer briefly, I would say there are both, too much regulation and...how did you put that again?

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Is it the process, or is there just too much regulation? Is there a problem with the process as well? It sounds as though there is.

[Glen Sibbeston]

The process is definitely difficult. It's not straightforward, and it's hard to understand. It differs from case to case.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay. I want to lead into my next question, then. When you started to get this change to your water licence, were you dealing with individuals? Did you feel there was a structure in place so that you could actually hear what they were saying and you had a chance to appeal, or did you feel it was being decided arbitrarily and you couldn't tell who was making the decision?

[Bradley Gemmer]

The way it works in the Yukon is that the Yukon Water Board publishes your application. Comments are made and come in from everywhere. The comments that come from the Department of Fisheries are generally followed pretty vigorously by the water board. Even though they don't really have an obligation to do it, they do it. I don't really know how the lower process works.

I will read one thing from a major mine in Canada that we worked for:

The biggest bottle neck for the projects in the North especially Nunavut is the slow process to obtain permits (4 to 5 years...) and this is mainly due to the shortage of human resources or right human resources in the government's organisations...to analyse all demands for all the coming projects. It is going to [start getting worse] if nothing is done. Mining Companies [are looking] at other countries since the delays are too long in Nunavut.

These are people I've worked for. Anyway, there's more to that, but that's a general statement.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Yes, we've heard that before. People are moving south to some of the provinces or elsewhere, rather than have to deal with the complications they face.

Mr. Sibbeston, you talked about the different perceptions of land ownership. You said that we needed to complete the land claims, but that the industrialist concept of land ownership must prevail since it is industrial activities that the land is destined for.

Do you think folks in the north are ready to embrace that notion?

[Glen Sibbeston]

A lot are. There are some who aren't. The Dehcho tried to negotiate a land claim whereby they would co-manage the lands with the federal government. It was a circle of people and consensus was required. I think that's a pre-industrial idea that isn't going to work.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Maybe some other people want to follow that up.

For now, I want to talk about your two suggestions at the end, and maybe get Mr. Gemmer's thoughts on this as well. You're talking about higher thresholds within the regulations before licences are required. Can we do that without environmental impacts? Is that a practical suggestion?

[Bradley Gemmer]

Yes, I think so. Glen talked about the threshold as a camp of four or five people for a summer. When you get into the requirements, you have to have a medic, you have to have this, and you have to have that. There's a built-in group of people you have to have before you can even start—first-aid people, whatever. It makes it really tough to do something. You might have been able to get away with it 50 years ago. You took five people and away you went, and that was it. Nowadays there are a lot of requirements.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Typically the government has heavier requirements, and it ends up being heavier requirements for personnel that need to be around. But it hasn't made the changes to the standards.

[Bradley Gemmer]

Exactly.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

The second suggestion had to do with standardized licensing for routine activities. Is that something that could work? We're looking for some practical things we can suggest in the report.

[Bradley Gemmer]

I think that's the most important thing of all. When the diamond mines went through their processing, one made it through without anything but promises. Speaking of BHP, they were probably the most community-minded mine in the central Arctic. But then Diavik came along, and they had to put up a $180 million bond. That's strictly financial. BHP, for example, went to a couple of communities and set up schools. It was a good thing, the kind of thing that's missing for the most part.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

How do you see employment opportunities developing over the next few years? We've had a few people here talking about the necessity of employing local people and bringing the educational standards up. Is that happening?

[Bradley Gemmer]

There are two aspects to what happens. One is the ability of the native people to orient themselves to a regimented work day. On the other side of the coin, you might say they feel a bit inadequate because they haven't really been prepared for this.

I took a crew of about nine people from Rae. The BHP people set up a school there for them, and it was very successful. Most of them still have jobs with BHP or Diavik. So that's the kind of thing that is extremely beneficial to pulling it off at all, as far as employment goes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Your time is up.

We'll go now to the New Democratic Party and Monsieur Lapointe for up to seven minutes.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My English is not bad, but I stand for linguistic duality in the country. I come from Quebec.

Thanks for the full seven minutes.

My questions are mostly for Mr. Sibbeston. But don't hesitate to speak up if you have information to add, Mr. Gemmer.

Your report is very interesting. As one of my colleagues opposite mentioned, your presentations are striking in that you provide very clear suggestions, focused on the actual situation. Some things are not clear to me but that is likely because of my lack of knowledge about the northwest of the country. So I would like to explore that with you a little.

Let me start with your three priorities. It says here that the Northwest Territories Chamber of Commerce named you Business of the Year. Is that right?

[Glen Sibbeston]

Yes, Trinity Helicopters received a business of the year award for 2011.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

My congratulations. That is great; well done!