Evidence of meeting #18 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sibbeston.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
You still have time for one more question, Mr. Harris, if you'd like.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Can I go back to Discovery Air Innovations, which Mr. McGuinty brought up? I know that on the first one on the drawing board, there's talk of about 50 metric tonnes of lifting capacity, but they also talk about the dream one, which would be about 200 metric tonnes of lifting capacity.
I see there was a geoscience fair up there earlier this month. I wish we had known. It would have been a good place for us to be—up in Yellowknife.
You look at this concept of an air ship with that type of capacity: environmentally friendly, slow moving, of course, but a huge lifting capacity. And it doesn't need a runway, just a flat spot or a lake.
Does it sound as intriguing to you as it does to me, you being from that part of the country and knowing the logistics problems of getting things around?
4:50 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
My understanding of the airship is that the problem becomes ballast. If you dump 20 tonnes or 50 tonnes, then of course you have to either load it up or recompress your buoyancy gas. So it's probably not without a lot of flaws, and it has taken a long time. Of course, hydrogen, which is relatively easy to produce, didn't do so well in the Hindenburg, but helium is a pretty scarce commodity too and not as readily available as hydrogen, by any stretch. Actually, Cumberland were looking at that when they looked at that Meadowbank site. They were thinking about using that, but it wasn't far enough along.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Yes, they're talking about 2014, I think, for the possibility.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Mr. Harris, your time is up.
We go now to Monsieur Gravelle, for up to five minutes, please.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Gemmer, you're a steel company from Edmonton. I'd be interested to know if you do any work for the Keystone Pipeline.
4:50 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
No. Basically I've been servicing the Arctic, and that's not pipelines but tanks and plate work.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
All right. Are you not getting any work at all from the pipeline?
4:50 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
I would have to say that on either end of any pipeline there's a storage facility that may involve me, but typically I've been working with the mines.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
All right. Thank you.
I can't remember which one of you two said there are a lot of delays in getting permits. I'd like to know who's responsible for these delays. Is it the federal government, the territorial government, or the first nations, or a combination of all of them?
4:50 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
I think what's lacking is a finely tuned process where instead of doing it step by step by step, one can do it at the same time. It's going to take some time to establish, but we need a set formula whereby each company can go through the proper procedures and expect a proper outcome. A hundred million dollars to do a permit is a lot of money.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Are you saying that there should be the same rules for every project, even though the projects might differ considerably?
4:50 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
Whether it be a mining or a pipeline project or a road, or whatever, it should have a formula that is followed wherein certain things are submitted to the board and they assess them. I don't think the actual nature of the project has much to do with it. There are things such as settling ponds, which have to be addressed by people who are familiar with settling ponds.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
I think you're saying that if we're building roads, we should have the same rules as if we're building a mine. Is that what I heard you say?
4:50 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
Usually, they all work together. A road leads to a mine, for example, but the whole program should have some predetermined steps, which could be established through the history of how one goes through all these projects to get to the end. They all follow different paths, and they reach obstacles, and each time they reach an obstacle they step back and take another run at it—maybe in the same direction or another direction—but overall they probably all go through the same procedures, but with different paths and dealing with different people. Each time there's a new group of people there, of course, it's a whole new program again.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
From the past witnesses we've had on this committee, I believe that no real land claims have been settled in the far north. Is that correct?
4:55 p.m.
Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters
The whole of Nunavut was settled in one claim in 1999. In the Northwest Territories there are seven claim areas. Four have been settled and three are outstanding. The three that are outstanding are probably about half of the Northwest Territories.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
So if we had a settlement on the land claims with the first nations, would that benefit companies going up north to do some work?
4:55 p.m.
Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters
Absolutely, from the point of view that the ownership of the land becomes more definite and certain. That's one aspect of it.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Just a change of pace here.
When I used to work in the mines and the production got to be $2 a tonne, there was panic that the costs were way too high. Now you're saying in this report that it's $2 per kilometre, in one circumstance, and then if you use a bush plane it's $10 per kilometre, and if you use helicopters I believe it's $20 a kilometre. If the costs are that high, and the companies are still investing $1 billion to get a mine going, there must be a tremendous amount of profit to be made in the north.
4:55 p.m.
Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters
I think there absolutely is. The north of Canada has been blessed with some fantastic mineral wealth and energy wealth. There isn't a lot of overburden in a lot of areas, so it's easy to explore in a lot of cases. You have access, close access, to the bedrock in a lot of cases, so you can see what's there. That doesn't exist in places like Saskatchewan, except for in the northeast corner. So there are some advantages as well.
Now, you have to understand that in my specific business I'm at the very front end—the very leading exploration—when the helicopters and bush planes predominantly come in. By the time someone has invested enough money to start talking seriously about a mine, they're either into building ice roads or at the very least they have a nice long runway for the operation of jet aircraft. That's how they're able to drive the costs down. But building an infrastructure like that is a significant investment in itself.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Yes, it is a significant investment, and $1 billion to invest in a mine is a significant investment. But if you invest $1 billion to build a mine and a road, and everything that goes with it, and, at the end of the day you're raking in $5 billion a year, that's a pretty good profit, isn't it?
4:55 p.m.
Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters
I think there is excellent potential for companies to really do very well.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Gravelle.
Mr. Allen, for up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our two witnesses for being here today. It's good to hear some good, practical experience. In some ways, it's good to hear it and in some ways it's not so good to hear it, but good for our report, I think.
Mr. Sibbeston, I'm fascinated by the company and the corporate structure of Deton'Cho, I guess it is. Trinity is a Deton'Cho company, but there are actually 20 companies under the Deton'Cho operation, which is a development arm of a first nations community. Can you talk a little about that structure? It sounds like a tremendous corporate structure they have in that first nations community. Can you talk a little about that?
Secondly, what are the benefits that are accruing to the aboriginal communities in terms of dollars and employment?