Evidence of meeting #18 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sibbeston.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you very much, Mr. McGuinty.
We will go now to the first five-minute round, starting with Mr. Lizon, for up to five minutes, please.
Go ahead.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to direct my first question, through you, to Mr. Sibbeston.
In your presentation you referred to the Dehcho First Nations and the offer that was rejected. What brought you to the conclusion you presented to us that the federal government and others were trying to take advantage of the Dehcho First Nations with that offer? Why would you come to that conclusion?
As you probably very well know, in any approach to a project or to exploration or eventually to a mining project, the project has to be very widely assessed on the economic side, as well. Anybody who wants to explore and eventually mine is looking for a profit. If the undertaking were not profitable, they would withdraw. They would not proceed.
Why would you come to the conclusion you presented to us?
4:25 p.m.
Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters
The quantum of land that was offered was, per capita, lower than what had been settled in other areas, for one thing.
The proposed lands that were suggested by the Dehcho likely were not the most productive lands. The federal government knows from history...there's an oil exploration history there, and a mineral energy resource assessment had been done throughout a large part of the region at about the same time. Short of being known, these likely resources were more or less avoided and taken out of the....
I would say it was not exactly in good faith. The offer that was made certainly wasn't generous on the part of the federal government negotiators.
I'm not inside the minds of the people and what they knew about the thoughts and the capacities of the Dehcho leadership with respect to their knowledge of resources under the land.
It went one step further. The Dehcho leadership took their marching orders from the elders, and the elders had one agenda: to protect the land. That was why they proposed a co-management model where they would preside over 100% of the land in the area—
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Just so we have a better understanding of the situation Mr. Sibbeston is talking about, could he maybe tell us when this was happening?
4:25 p.m.
Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters
The Dehcho process began in approximately 1998-99. The offer was made by the Government of Canada in 2006 and was rejected. I believe it's been more or less quiet since 2007. There has been very little progress in that regard since 2007.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
Mr. Chair, just to help, what I'm getting at is this. Is it possible that in the situation described...while you're suggesting there was a lack of good faith, maybe it was all that could be afforded at that time, given the circumstances. Why would you stress lack of good faith in this situation?
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON
It's not based on any real evidence. It's your perception. Is that correct?
4:30 p.m.
Chief Pilot, Trinity Helicopters
I would suggest that it was probably the prevailing perception among the Dehcho. That was the feeling that was left.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Lizon. Your time is up.
We go now to Mr. Trost, for up to five minutes.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our two witnesses for being here today.
There was some talk earlier about how a smaller company, because of certain thresholds, couldn't afford to go on. It brought to mind a story I'd been told by a friend when I worked in the territories, of how he had been offered a share of a little company in exchange for work. He had been offered it for many years.
That little company from which he turned down work-for-shares property now runs one of the diamond mines up north. So little prospectors are often very tight for funds.
How often do you think it happens, in your experience, that individual prospectors, people who are two-, three-, or four-person firms, end up unable to proceed with their work plan or go ahead because of these regulations? Is this frequent? Is this rare? Effectively, do we now have...if it isn't a company of a certain size, it practically can't operate? How frequent are the sort of stories I referred to and that you shared earlier?
4:30 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
I would say that it's extremely frequent and that it was just a fluke they found the diamond mines. As you said, he was flat broke. In fact, he was staying in one of my guys' houses and he was kicked out because he was filling up the back yard with sand and crap.
I would say it's the predominant case that lots of people spend their whole life—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK
So now to get into the business you're going to need a few hundred thousand dollars capital behind you?
4:30 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
Well, there are prospectors, there are small mine developers, and then there are big mine developers. Prospectors go out and get some money. Once they have some values, they get some money, and then they all hope to sell to bigger outfits, and they're hoping the bigger outfit is big enough to put them over the threshold where they can actually do something.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK
The more people you have prospecting, the more potential there is for mines up the ladder, so if the bottom of this pyramid is cut out, we end up losing mines at the top.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK
I don't know how much experience you have working in other jurisdictions. I was visiting with a friend who is going to be doing placer mining—again, in British Columbia. He's not very familiar with the regs anywhere else and I was asking him about it.
Compared to working in the territories, what other jurisdictions have you found to be useful? Do you have any experience anywhere else? Where do you hear that it tends to be better for particularly small companies in dealing with regulatory environments?
4:30 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
I don't think a small company could do anything in the Northwest Territories or Nunavut. You're not talking about $100 million or $200 million; you're talking about half a billion dollars to pretty well get a mine going. I would say that would probably be the minimum now: $100 million to do the permit, then usually they buy out somebody for their land, and that's anywhere from that amount on up. I think Agnico-Eagle paid $300 million or $400 million for the land at Meadowbank.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK
A project that I worked on when Cumberland had the land....
I guess my question was, have either of you worked in any of the provinces, and do you have any comparisons between the provinces and the territories?
4:30 p.m.
President, Gem Steel Edmonton Ltd.
I've only talked to people who are now working in British Columbia. They found it much more streamlined and easier than the Yukon.
