Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 5th, 2011

[Glen Sibbeston]

They've been at this now for about 12 years; maybe the longest is the Gwitchin. I don't know exactly. They may have enough experience in granting land-use licences that they would be willing to work with the federal government to set higher thresholds. We need something everybody is comfortable with.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Gemmer, what do you think causes the problem?

[Bradley Gemmer]

There are the parameters. If a person wants to go somewhere and set up a camp for 10 or 15 people, he should know he has to have so much for washroom facilities and so forth. All of these parameters should be outlined so that if a person wants to set up a 10-man camp he will know what he needs to do. And that's easy.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

But he would not have to run after a permit for a year and a half.

[Bradley Gemmer]

And you wouldn't get these questions after the fact.

At my little placer mine in the Yukon, they wanted me to haul everything out for the washroom, and I ended up putting in a full septic system. But I had to do that on my own. It wasn't defined for me.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

It is not a matter of regulations. They could give you a clear framework; for example, a certain number of bathrooms must be cleaned or repaired in such and such a way after the prospecting is done. The rules can be very clear, but a small team should not have to run around after a permit for a year and a half. It is as simple as that. In your example, would that help you?

[Bradley Gemmer]

That's right. And it's easy to do, because ultimately they end up there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Lapointe.

Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Sorry, you said Ms. Day, but you meant me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Yes, go ahead.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I want to go back, if I could, Mr. Sibbeston, to this question that I need your insight on again, which is about ownership. Your own company, if I understand it, is 51% owned in terms of equity participation.

It's not the first time I have asked questions around equity participation and ownership, and I often hear back that there's a wall there, and the wall is “capacity”. It's capacity. Aboriginal peoples, first nations folks, don't have the capacity to participate. I take that at face value, but I don't see that as an insurmountable obstacle.

Leaving aside capacity, if you wanted Dehcho leadership to participate in a major infrastructure project and own a fixed percentage of that, do you see any other obstacle? Access to capital might be one, but that's easily correctable, whether it's the proponent or the state or a bank—a third-party lender.

Leaving aside capital and capacity, what else is there that would stop first nations people from owning, say, part of Diavik? Why aren't aboriginal peoples in the immediate vicinity of Diavik owners of that diamond mine? As a lawyer, I see no legal impediment and no contractual impediment.

I see an unevenness in negotiation power. I see a reluctance on behalf of project proponents to open that door and let folks walk through it. Taking aside capacity, do you see any other impediments that would make it difficult or even impossible to say let's start having a serious conversation about ownership with folks?

[Glen Sibbeston]

The barriers are falling. I think that in the next decade or two decades we're really going to see things change. The aboriginal people of the Northwest Territories are going to start becoming a serious economic force.

It took time. Lack of ownership of the land is a serious impediment. In a lot of cases the land claims are fee simple lands that are given. I think there are caveats where they're not permitted to dispose of the land, so that would be an impediment. How do you partner with a mine?

Say you wanted an equity position in a mine but you can't offer the land, other than in a lease arrangement, I suppose.... I would caution about being too restrictive on that, but I can also see the hazards of giving a little too much autonomy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty. Our time is up.

I want to thank both of you gentlemen, Mr. Sibbeston and Mr. Gemmer, for a very down-to-earth, hands-on view of some of the difficulties, and some suggestions for change. Thank you very much. Your input will be helpful to our report.

Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.