Evidence of meeting #51 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pipelines.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jeff Labonté  Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Joseph McHattie  Legal Counsel, Department of Natural Resources
Terence Hubbard  Director General, Petroleum Resources Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Rémi Bourgault

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

That's a great question. I appreciate the question.

We did a fair bit of analysis and certainly looked at a whole bunch of factors when establishing the proposed limits that are included in the bill. We took into account an analysis of the historic incidents and the number of incidents that have occurred and have involved pipeline spills. We looked at current and proposed projects. We looked at existing pipelines, the volumes they carry, the nature of the goods they carry, and the exposure they might have to different scenarios of land, property, and whatnot.

We looked at other jurisdictions as well, so as your benchmark would say.... We certainly recognize that to our south in the United States there is the example of the Enbridge incident in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where there was a rupture and just shy of 20,000 barrels leaked into the Kalamazoo River, I believe. The cost of cleaning up that spill is in the order of a billion dollars. I think it's about $1.1 billion or $1.2 billion, depending on which dollar you're looking at and what day you're looking at. That particular cost would be, I think, the high-water mark, if you will, in terms of analysis we've conducted.

We looked into the records of NEB hearings and different projects that are taking place. Certainly, the northern gateway panel, as an example, had established a $950-million limit as the terms of fiscal capacity expected of the northern gateway partnership project. That was a mix of cash, insurance, and asset requirements.

We looked at the United States, Norway, Australia, and other countries around the world that we would consider peer jurisdictions. In the U.S., the methodology for looking at oil spills is an oil spill fund. An oil spill fund has an upper limit of $1 billion per incident, so should an incident occur and a company is not able to deal with the incident adequately, there is up to a billion dollars of coverage that's funded.

In establishing our assessment and liability limit, we looked at all of those factors and felt that the billion-dollar amount was an adequate amount given (a) our comparators with other jurisdictions, and (b) the number of incidents we've seen and the incidents we've seen in terms of incidents around the world, and certainly what was established as a benchmark in the northern gateway scientific hearing, which had testimony from various experts from many jurisdictions. That was one part of it.

The second part of it was to look at and compare our world in terms of liability as it relates to liability related to negligence and fault and to liability as it relates to absolute liability. Certainly when we look at the Canadian context, we have several examples in statute around this particular domain of natural resource development where we see absolute liability, in which the entity that's responsible for the activity is automatically responsible in the event of something going wrong, regardless of fault or negligence. We see this in the offshore under Bill C-22, which has passed. We've seen it in the nuclear sector. We see it in the Fisheries Act. We see it in a number of places.

Not only did we establish the billion-dollar limit, but we also proposed—and this is certainly included in the legislation, as you see—the notion of absolute liability, which removes the arguing and entanglement about who's responsible for what and what degree of responsibility there is. It becomes the responsibility of the operator. After everything is settled and sorted out, if you will, the operator can then pursue the legal routes to deal with who may be responsible beyond themselves, whether it was a contractor or a third party.

Certainly, when we established the billion dollars, we worked fairly extensively at looking at a number of areas and came to a conclusion. I think I have covered most of what your interest was, and if there are more questions in this area, I'm happy to take them.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Trost.

I want to congratulate Mr. Trost and his wife on the birth of their first child, Isabel, in the past couple of days.

[Applause]

She's cute. She is a darling.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Caron.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

Most of the questions I will be asking will be about the impact of ground disturbances on agriculture.

What poses a problem in the legislation is the complexity of the exclusions and the conditions of exclusion in the definition of ground disturbances. Certain plants have very deep or widespread root systems, but do not necessarily cause damage. Take alfalfa, for instance. This plant may measure several metres. However, there are certain limits that are set in the legislation. I refer you to the second paragraph on page 3, clause 5.

Here is my first question: how will the exceptions in the act regarding the impact of ground disturbances be applied?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Thank you for your question. I would like to take a few minutes to look at the context of the question you have asked.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Of course.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

You referred to clause 5?

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

It is at tab 5 in the 177 pages of explanations. The third page discusses ground disturbances exclusively.

Perhaps I could summarize it briefly while you are looking for the reference.

The ground disturbances mentioned in the legislative provisions do not include ground disturbances caused by activities authorized by regulations or orders referred to in section 112, i.e. cultivation that is less than 45 centimetres deep. So cultivation that is less than 45 centimetres below the surface of the ground, or any other activity to a depth of less than 30 centimetres that does not result in a reduction of the earth cover over the pipeline to a depth that is less than the cover provided when the pipeline was constructed, are excluded.

These are provisions that aim to set out a series of conditions that would cause some cultivation to be excluded or included with regard to ground disturbances and pipeline safety. Have I given you some idea of the context?

I have several questions on this. How will these exceptions be monitored and who will do that? Why was a maximum depth of 30 centimetres included in the bill rather than being determined in the ground-related regulations? I will begin with those two questions.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Thank you for the question.

Perhaps I could answer, but I would like to make a clarification first in connection with your question. Perhaps it should be addressed to my colleagues from the National Energy Board, because they are responsible for anything involving verification.

Generally, in a policy context,

the description of the ground disturbance and the conditions around ground disturbance would be considered when the board would hear the application for abandonment.

Should the pipeline that was proposed to be abandoned be in an agricultural area, the board may determine the conditions to require a further depth of requirement as a condition of abandonment versus the conditions related to what might be in a non-agricultural area or a rural area, or an area of forested cover, as it might be.

The considerations as to what was acceptable ground disturbance vis-à-vis an abandonment process would be taken into consideration during an abandonment hearing and may form conditions of abandonment. That's the first part of the answer.

On the question of who would verify and continue to monitor, it would be the role of the National Energy Board to continue to do so. Certainly, some potential landowner who might be impacted by an abandonment order would have knowledge of that order. It would be the board's responsibility to then communicate with that landowner vis-à-vis what would be conditions of limitations, if you will.

Generally speaking, the purpose of the ground disturbance is to establish a reasonable amount of land that may be disturbed before the safety of the individual disturbing the land might come into question.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

That is why farmers are worried about some provisions, but I will wait until representatives of the board are here with us to ask the rest of my questions on this topic. However, I have another question that might be more in keeping with your expertise.

When the consultation was held on the pipeline crossover regulations, the Union des producteurs agricoles du Québec had already recommended that a provision on absolute responsibility be withdrawn. Why did you not apply that recommendation?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

I don't know if I understand your question exactly. What do you mean by the word “crossover”?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

A consultation was held previously on regulations about the crossover of pipelines. One of the recommendations of the Union des producteurs agricoles du Québec had to do with the matter of absolute responsibility. The UPA recommended that the provision on absolute responsibility be withdrawn. Why was that recommendation not implemented? If you do not have the answer now, you could provide it later.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Yes, perhaps, because I do not exactly know the answer. Absolute responsibility is mentioned in the bill, but I don't know what the context is exactly regarding crossovers.

This may be the starting point for a company which is responsible for a pipeline or a refinery or another business of that type. I don't know, but we are certainly going to do some research in order to be able to answer your question.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Yes, thank you very much.

Clause 5 of the bill gives the board the power to inquire into any accident involving an abandoned pipeline. Through that clause and the following clauses, the National Energy Board is given great latitude regarding the triggering of these investigations, their scope and the criteria on the publication and distribution of the results. This is on page 9, tab 5.

I would like to know what the specific criteria would be that would allow the board to launch such an investigation. Are those criteria public at this time or, if not, will they be eventually? How would the National Energy Board inform the public or Parliament of its conclusions?

4 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Thank you for the question.

Generally speaking, the National Energy Board carries out inspections and verifications based on the activities of companies, their history, the risks involved, the questions that remain unanswered, as well as certain incidents or activities of the company. For instance, after the Kalamazoo River spill in Michigan, which involved the Enbridge company, the board inspected the operations centre. Inspectors examined all of the aspects of protocols, activities, policies and so on.

This is based on questions asked by the members of the National Energy Board. That said, if the board examines a given issue, the protocol requires that it publish the results and its report. However, once again, it would be up to my colleagues from the National Energy Board to verify what their protocol is exactly in the case of an investigation, as well as its conclusions.

Here, however, we have to examine the bill with additional precision, to see what the responsibilities and powers of the National Energy Board are. We are now working in this area and there is a great deal of activity. So we have to see what the bill says.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Caron.

Ms. Freeland, for seven minutes.

March 24th, 2015 / 4 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The dominant fact today about the oil industry and therefore pipeline safety is the fact that it's experiencing a sudden and rather deep downturn.

Do you have any concerns that the economic pressures the oil industry is facing might have an impact on pipeline safety and on the ability of companies to meet some of these financial demands laid out in the act?

4 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

First, thanks for the question. It's a helpful one.

The oil and gas industry is a long-term industry. Certainly it moves with ups and downs like many industries, but most of the natural resource industries have booms and bottoms, and they move around in different aspects.

When we talk about pipelines, generally a pipeline project is conceived, planned, organized, evaluated, and studied usually for a period of several years before it is constructed and operated. Then it usually operates over a period of several decades.

Certainly, from a safety point of view, looking at that long rhythm and that long horizon, making sure that companies are financially viable, financially sound, and financially responsible before and during construction, during operation, and in the longer term, is part of the interest and purpose of the bill.

The other aspect around pipelines, the industry and the economics is that there is a great deal of variation and fluctuation around the producer community and how producers pay tolls for the movement of their goods using pipelines. Generally speaking, pipeline companies like to have many customers interested in using their transportation networks and it's a very competitive discussion about whether a company buys a specific amount of volume or whether it buys it on a spot basis as customer demand surges. There are a number of variables going on.

The view we have around the economic aspects is that they are certainly going to have costs associated with them, but that the industry is prepared to and should be able to cover these.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Thank you.

As I understand it, the bill would set up a consolidated revenue fund that would be available to pay for claims that a company is unable to satisfy in the event of a catastrophic spill. Is that right?

4 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

4 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Can you say how it's the case and how it's not the case, and give us some insight into the thinking around it?

4 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Sure.

The bill provides first-hand a provision that the National Energy Board could take control of an incident response and compensation of damages to any harmed parties. That provision doesn't exist in the National Energy Board Act today, and it would propose that it would be implemented based on the ability of the Governor in Council to designate a company. A designation would follow a sequence of steps, where a company might suffer an incident, and the company might not respond to the board's orders to clean up the incident or to behave in a certain way, and the board might then make a recommendation to the Minister of Natural Resources to designate the company as unresponsive. The Governor in Council would then consider designating a company as unresponsive, and then the board would be provided the authority to act.

Bill C-46 provides that the Minister of Finance may provide funds from the consolidated revenue fund to the board to pay for the cleanup and the response. In the event that damages are suffered beyond the cleanup and response, a tribunal may be established to provide adjudication and review and assessment of damages and provide compensation for parties that may be harmed. I use the word “may” in a number of choices because there are the possibilities that an incident occurs and there aren't many parties who suffer damage, in which case setting up a tribunal would be fairly extraordinary and heavy-handed and not necessary. It may be that an incident, should it occur, could affect more than one person or several parties, in which case adjudication through a tribunal would be a reasoned response.

The consolidated revenue fund reference is to the government's account, if you will, managed by the Minister of Finance, and would be exercised in that way only when a company would be designated as unresponsive or unwilling.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Where does the money for that fund come from?

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

It would come from the Ministry of Finance, the Government of Canada.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Chrystia Freeland Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

The people of Canada, right?

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Energy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Taxpayers, correct.