Evidence of meeting #52 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pipeline.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Josée Touchette  Chief Operating Officer, National Energy Board
Jonathan Timlin  Director, Regulatory Approaches, National Energy Board
Robert Steedman  Chief Environment Officer, National Energy Board

4:45 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Guy Caron

Thank you.

Mr. Timlin, the floor is yours.

4:45 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Approaches, National Energy Board

Jonathan Timlin

I would like to add something to my colleague's comment.

You mentioned as well the follow-up on non-compliances and the enforcement activities that we undertake, and I just want to assure the committee that the board does follow up on every non-compliance that we identify, whether that's with a notice of non-compliance, an inspection office order that's issued, or a board order.

In every situation, there's a corrective action plan that details the conditions that need to be followed for the company to be back into compliance. Our staff will always follow up to make sure that those conditions are being complied with.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Guy Caron

Thank you very much.

I have five minutes only, so let me quickly go to a second question.

I come from Quebec. I am therefore more familiar with how the BAPE works, particularly in terms of wind farms, several of which are in my riding. In the BAPE process, projects are generally completely finalized. We know where the wind turbines will be placed, we know the route of haul roads. All the details are actually included before the BAPE starts a project.

We feel that with current projects—including energy east, of course, but that is not the only one—promoters have the option of submitting projects that don't seem to be finalized because many other factors come into play. For energy east, 9,000 new pages were added.

At the end of the day, what helps the board decide that the project is finalized and that the hearings can begin? What are the deciding factors at stake when all is said and done?

You have about 45 seconds.

4:45 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, National Energy Board

Josée Touchette

Actually, there are two economies: the BAPE economy—economy in the broad sense—and the National Energy Board economy.

I will ask Mr. Steedman to add to that.

4:45 p.m.

Chief Environment Officer, National Energy Board

Dr. Robert Steedman

Thank you for that question.

A key aspect is that the board finds itself in a position to make a recommendation to cabinet for a major project that the project is in the public interest and that it can be built and operated safely. There's a lot of oversight and back-and-forth that continues even after a certificate of public necessity and convenience may be issued related to the final design stages, which companies must leave until after they have that major regulatory step out of the way.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Guy Caron

I have to stop you now.

Thank you for your answer.

I will now turn the floor over to Ms. Crockatt for five minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Thank you very much.

We appreciate the fact that you're here and able to help us drill down further into this legislation.

I want to ask a little more about the communication aspect of your job. I think you are doing wonderful work. In particular, you have noted the now increased interest of the public in participating in all of your hearings. Can you expand for us on what you are doing to communicate to the public your role and what your findings are, etc.?

4:45 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, National Energy Board

Josée Touchette

Thank you very much.

One key thing that our new chair has begun is an engagement tour with Canadians, moving from region to region in Canada to get a sense of the preoccupations Canadians may have. Obviously the country is very large and quite varied, so from one region to another there will be questions that reflect regional particularities. So far, he has been to the Atlantic provinces and to the Quebec region.

We are finding that people didn't really know what the National Energy Board's role was. This goes to Monsieur Caron's previous question: you'll rely on the processes you know and, therefore, if you're dealing with a different process, you assume that it might be or should be the same as the original process.

That is really proving to be very useful. For our being able to make determinations in the public interest, having that dialogue is extremely important.

As well, we're working very hard to have our materials available on our website and to be as user-friendly as possible, to explain all the various phases of what is in effect a technical process, a quasi-judicial process, and to make it as easy to understand as possible, so that people whose interests are at stake are able to participate effectively.

I believe Mr. Timlin wants to add something.

4:50 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Approaches, National Energy Board

Jonathan Timlin

Ms. Crockatt, I really appreciate that question, because it speaks to something I'm very passionate about and something I had responsibility for at the board. Prior to taking this role, I was accountable for much of our outreach on application-specific issues.

I think it's really important to note, as Madam Touchette mentioned, that this is a technical review. That can seem a little bit daunting, so we strive really hard to get out to the communities that may be impacted by a project and to explain our processes. We do a number of information sessions after a proponent has provided the project description, so we get out and explain how our process works and how to participate in our projects. We provide process advisers, staff at the NEB who answer questions from the public on the process and on how to participate.

I must stress that of course aboriginal engagement is a key component of the work we do as well. We have an enhanced aboriginal engagement program that proactively seeks out aboriginal groups who may potentially be affected by a project in order to make sure they are aware that the project is going through their area. We have a participant funding program that provides funding to assist people to meaningfully participate in projects that we review. These activities are of course in addition to the broader outreach activities that Madam Touchette just mentioned.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

What do people want to know? What is their main question?

4:50 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Approaches, National Energy Board

Jonathan Timlin

From a project-specific basis? The people are—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Yes. It might be an unfair question, but I'm just wondering, when you reach out to people, what is the main thing that you hear back, the main thing they are interested in finding out from the NEB?

4:50 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Approaches, National Energy Board

Jonathan Timlin

In my most recent experience in doing this, I was out in Kerrobert, Saskatchewan, not very long ago, and we met with folks who were interested in hearing about the Line 3 replacement program. The application had just come in. There were a fair number of questions around abandonment, frankly, but there were also a lot of questions around the process itself and how to participate in our processes, and also about participant funding.

We want to make sure that we're out in communities and are explaining how our processes work, and what access people can have to the process and to funding that may be available to assist them to meaningfully participate.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Guy Caron

We will now move to Ms. Duncan, who will be sharing her time with Ms. Charlton.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you very much.

I have a couple of quick questions.

I want to go back to the issue of self-monitoring, self-inspection, and self-enforcement. Do you not think there is an inherent conflict of interest when the company owns and operates the pipeline and hires another company to undertake that role? In order for them to keep that contract, they are obviously not going to want to be raising a lot of issues. I know this because I follow this issue in the field.

Can you tell me if the reports that are made by this independent entity to the company are in turn turned over to the NEB, and are they made public?

4:50 p.m.

Chief Environment Officer, National Energy Board

Dr. Robert Steedman

The National Energy Board has inspectors out on these projects as well—

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

No, that's not my question.

4:50 p.m.

Chief Environment Officer, National Energy Board

Dr. Robert Steedman

—inspecting the inspectors.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

My question is this. The legislation allows for the NEB to delegate to the company, and it does, much of the function—it's right in the statute—of monitoring, of surveillance, of monitoring serial lines, and of enforcement. They in turn can delegate to an independent company, and that is in fact what's happening with most of the lines. My question is, are those private reports that are done when these people are hired by the company also provided to you, and are they available to the public?

4:55 p.m.

Chief Environment Officer, National Energy Board

Dr. Robert Steedman

The National Energy Board, through its management system audits, would dig into those and ensure that they are done and that they are addressing the issues that need to be addressed. We will look at the qualifications of their inspectors. We look at that very carefully.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Are they made public?

4:55 p.m.

Chief Environment Officer, National Energy Board

Dr. Robert Steedman

Not typically—we would be investigating the files in their office.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Okay. Thank you.

One issue that we talked to the government about when they were here on Tuesday is what the criteria are and what the process is by which the board makes a determination. As I understand it, first of all, the board recommends to the minister, and then the minister recommends to the cabinet whether or not a company is financially capable of responding to a spill.

Do you have specific criteria and a process or is this going to be done by regulation? The reason I'm raising the question is that you responded to a question from somebody else previously by saying that some of these issues can't be responded to yet because they are going to be done by regulation.

I put the question to the government. A normal process now when governments are developing complex bills is that they will also simultaneously begin looking at the potential regulations, because they give substance to the bill, and then at any staffing and training that may be necessary, so that the minute the bill becomes law it is actually effective. The government told us that they haven't started doing the regulations because there is no law yet.

Is it also the case for the NEB that you haven't given thought yet to what the implementing regulations will say?

4:55 p.m.

Director, Regulatory Approaches, National Energy Board

Jonathan Timlin

Thank you very much for the question, Ms. Duncan.

I think what I would do at the outset is place the bill into context of what we actually do now and of the powers we have now, because I think that's a really important starting point.

At the outset, the board would require a company that has a spill to take any measures necessary to make the pipeline safe, to clean up the mess, and to remediate the environment. That would be regardless of what it costs the company.

The bill puts in place a number of measures that would also require the company to have minimum financial resources, or what we refer to as “ability to pay”, to ensure that it's able to meet its responsibilities. But the board will always require that the company be cleaning up its mess and be doing what it needs to do to make sure that the environment is protected and that people remain safe. This is really regardless of cost.

Now, you specifically asked about the provisions in the bill regarding what is referred to as the designation of a company or the designated company. There are two criteria in the bill whereby a company can be designated. The first criterion is that the company is unable to—

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

That's right. I'm aware of it.