Evidence of meeting #56 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bob Hamilton  Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Kami Ramcharan  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management and Services Sector, Department of Natural Resources

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone. It's good to be at the meeting today with the Minister of Natural Resources, Minister Rickford, and with Bob Hamilton, deputy minister.

We are here today pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) to deal with the main estimates for 2015-16, referred to the committee on Tuesday, February 24, 2015: vote 1 under Atomic Energy of Canada Limited; vote 1 under the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission; vote 1 under the National Energy Board; votes 1, 5, and 10 under Natural Resources; and vote 1 under Northern Pipeline Agency.

Let's get right to the business before us today. I want to start by welcoming you, Minister, to our committee. Thank you very much for coming again. We do appreciate your making yourself available whenever the committee requests that you come.

You are here today on the estimates. If you would like to make an opening statement go ahead. Then we'll go to questions and comments as we normally do.

3:30 p.m.

Kenora Ontario

Conservative

Greg Rickford ConservativeMinister of Natural Resources

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, colleagues, for this opportunity. It's great to be here again, especially on the heels of our government's balanced budget, economic action plan 2015.

The balanced budget tabled on April 21 reflects our government's commitment to the fiscal discipline that supports job creation, economic growth, and long-term prosperity for Canadians. It also reflects our long-standing position that Canadian families should be able to decide how to spend their hard-earned money, and that's why we're returning more of it to the pockets of every family.

I mention this in the context of the matters related to natural resources because this approach is not shared by all. Obviously, our opposition has been vociferous in advocating for policies that would reverse these tax cuts and raise the price of everything through risky policies like a carbon tax. Let me be clear. This unilateral scheme will require, by necessity, a carbon tax, impose higher prices on everything that Canadians buy, and hurt the Canadian economy and competitiveness. This would be no more obvious than in its impact on the energy sector. That is why you will notice that absent from our economic plan is any mention of a carbon tax.

In terms of a budget overview, let me spend some time talking about what is in economic action plan 2015. As the finance minister said, our balanced budget is prudent, it's practical, and it sticks to our successful plan for creating and protecting jobs and opportunities for Canadians. This includes important new measures to help families and communities prosper, while ensuring the security of all Canadians, and it delivers timely investments for the natural resource sector that has helped to build this great country.

Members have often heard me talk about Canada's natural resources as key drivers of our economy. There's good reason for that.

Our resource sectors—directly and indirectly—account for almost one fifth of our nominal GDP and more than 1.8 million jobs across the entire country. They generate an average of $30 billion annually in government revenues—revenues that support important public programs and services, including health care, education and infrastructure.

That is why responsibly developing our natural resources continues to be a central element in our economic action plan for 2015. And that is why our government is proud to continue supporting sustainable growth through targeted measures in the forest, mining, nuclear and oil and gas sectors. We have also made significant investments to strengthen public consultation and environmental protection.

Let me highlight some specific details of the economic action plan 2015.

For forestry, we will continue to support the transformation of the forest sector by extending the forest innovation program and the expanding market opportunities program.

In mining, we are sustaining Canada's global leadership by renewing the targeted geoscience initiative to develop new and innovative ways of exploring for deeper minerals, unlocking rare earth elements and chromite production, extending the mineral exploration tax credit, and expanding the definition of Canadian exploration expenses to include the costs associated with environmental studies and community consultations.

On the nuclear side, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited will receive the investments it needs to maintain safe and reliable operations at the Chalk River Laboratories.

There is also continued support for LNG, from the accelerated capital cost allowance to a commitment to extend natural gas export licences from 25 to 40 years.

If you're in the business of natural resource development, then you are in the business of environmental performance and aboriginal engagement. That's why budget 2015 includes substantial investments and initiatives to maintain public engagement and improve environmental performance safety. There is funding to enhance the safety of marine transportation in the Arctic and further strengthen marine incident prevention, preparedness, and response in waters south of the 60th parallel. This is consistent with our approach to rail and pipelines.

As well there are some new investments to support effective project approval through the major projects management office initiative, to continue consultations with Canadians on projects assessed under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, and to support greater engagement with all Canadians, including aboriginal communities, with a focus on enhanced safety and environmental performance through the National Energy Board.

I will now discuss responsible resource development.

All of these measures build on our government's plan for responsible resource development, which is making the review process for major projects more predictable and timely while improving the safety of our offshore, rail, pipelines and nuclear facilities. Our government's message is clear: we are supporting the responsible development of our resources, but no project will proceed unless it is safe. Safe for Canadians and safe for the environment.

Let me now turn to the issue of lower oil prices. Clearly, this has had an impact on the economy in all regions of Canada, on government bottom lines, and on the oil and gas industry's investment plans, at least in the short term. While conditions are challenging today, Canadian crude oil production is expected to keep growing in 2015 and beyond. Canada's oil and gas industry has a long-term perspective and most projects already under construction are expected to move forward. And remember: the long-term outlook for energy is strong.

The International Energy Agency projects that by 2040 the world will need at least a third more energy than is being consumed today. With our extensive oil and gas reserves and our unparalleled expertise, Canada is well positioned to help meet that demand. However, we must build the infrastructure needed to get Canadian energy to global markets to ensure Canada gets the best return for its resources, whatever the market conditions.

This brings me to my department's main estimates. First, it's important to note that the main estimates are a snapshot in time of planned expenditures. Here are the details.

As you will see there are a number of substantial new investments and they include $22.8 million to renew the investments in the forest industry transformation program, an additional $19.7 million to define the outer limits of Canada's continental shelf in the Arctic, and an $18.4 million increase to manage low-level historical waste through the Port Hope area initiative.

These main estimates also include funding for the seven agencies under my portfolio, which are key partners in supporting our government's natural resources priorities. To ensure the National Energy Board can continue its important work we're providing an additional $5.6 million to carry out public hearings on major projects such as Energy East.

As announced in budget 2015, $80 million over five years will be invested beginning this fiscal year for safety and environmental protection as well as greater engagement with Canadians.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, our balanced budget main estimates demonstrate our government's responsible and targeted approach to realizing the full benefits that our natural wealth provides. As I said when last here, we're committed to developing Canada's resources in a way that's safe and environmentally responsible, and engage all communities, in particular aboriginal communities, in every aspect of development. These are not negotiable, frankly, and we will continue to take action to ensure these goals are met.

Thank you again for this opportunity. I'm happy to take your questions.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Minister, for your presentation, and thank you again for being here.

I'd like to remind the members that we have the remaining part of an hour with the minister and with Mr. Hamilton, the deputy minister. We'll suspend the meeting and then go to departmental officials for most of the last hour. Then we'll leave a bit of time to go through the votes as we do at the end of the meeting.

Let's get on with it, starting with Ms. Perkins from the government's side.

You have up to seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome, Mr. Minister.

As you know this committee has been studying Canada's forest industry for the past few months. Overwhelmingly what we've been hearing is that the industry is no longer in a state of crisis but rather in a process of very strong renewal. In 2013 the industry posted its highest revenues in many years and witnesses have stated that this renewal is in part due to this government's strategic investments in programs.

Would you like to expand on the $22.8 million that is committed to renew the investments in the forest industry transformation program, which you mentioned in your opening remarks? Witnesses at this committee have in particular pointed to this program as a positive one. To quote James Irving, who thanked the federal government for this program when he was here in February:

It's helped us and other companies innovate, and that's a well-run program that we think Canada is getting good value from. It helped address some of our challenges and improve our competitiveness.

With that in mind, how are you and your department ensuring the investments in the IFIT program support the development and the commercialization of technologies? How many projects have we been funding so far?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you for that question, Mr. Chair.

Obviously this is of particular interest to me, not just as the Minister of Natural Resources but as a member from one of the larger ridings in Canada and across northwestern Ontario, I would submit, with a calibre of timber that can compete with the best around the world.

In the wake of the last recession, in which the forest sector was the first in, and frankly, one of the last out, it's certainly showing signals—“strong” may too strong a word for it—and signs of life. There are parts of it that are doing better than others. If that's the case—and I believe it is—it's because of investments, the acceleration of commercialization, and highly innovative first-in-kind technologies in Canadian forestry industry facilities.

There are two important objectives in IFIT. In terms of technological innovation, there has been a focus on supporting the industry and specific mills in improving and increasing the efficiency of their production and of course the diversification of their product offering. I can say that in northwestern Ontario, particularly in the great Kenora riding, we are seeing one new mill open, two reopened ones, one set to reopen, and one at or near full capacity. In at least a third of these cases, they are coming back with value-added products. The support they're looking for—for example, from FedNor or Industry Canada—is focused on how to produce products more efficiently and with technologies that enable them to do so more effectively.

Current spending by proponents and contributions from other sources indicate that for every dollar the federal government invests from the program, another $2.60 is leveraged from other sources. We think that's good. We'd like to see it improve. The program has successfully funded more than 14 projects involving nine world-first technologies, with 75% of the projects creating new products or diversifying recipients' product offerings.

I'm a big fan of the success that this program has had. It's a credit to my officials for its implementation, and obviously, based on what I have just said, we have every confidence that it was a smart reinvestment moving forward.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

Thank you.

Another area that we've heard a lot of positive feedback about from witnesses is the government's market diversification strategy. Witnesses have stated that the strategy has helped Canada's wood product sector increase its exports in rapidly growing economies, particularly in Asia and India. For example, David Lindsay, FPAC president, told the committee that they have seen “a growth of 10% in exports last year”, that “forest products are now Canada's largest export to China”, and that Canada climbed from about two billion dollars' worth of exports to China in 2009 to where it sits currently, at about $4.7 billion.

With that in mind, could you expand on the key components of the expanding market opportunities program, which I think is called EMO, and how it's leading to such success?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you for that question.

To go back to your first question, there are two structural challenges for the sector and in that sense two opportunities. I talked earlier about investments in innovation. The other important component is the transformation of the markets for forestry.

We've seen significant—I may understate it by saying significant—growth in the Pacific basin's demand for Canadian forest products. It's my view that while that's very encouraging, there remain parts of Canada.... Again I go back to northwestern Ontario, where we, being somewhat landlocked, are continuing to develop and strengthen our position in markets in the Midwest of the United States and looking at opportunities from the east coast, as our friends in New Brunswick are seeing strong signals that the forest sector is rebounding. In their aggregate, they all point to the pursuit of market diversification for Canada's sustainably produced and high-quality forest products.

This program spending, to the tune of $1.8 billion since 2007, has significantly improved product demand for the Canadian forest sector overall. I'm pleased to highlight to the committee that budget 2015 confirmed $30 million over two years to the expanding market opportunities program. I believe strongly this will help Canadian forestry companies develop new markets and market segments for Canada's wood products.

I would say in closing, Mr. Chair, that my efforts in the Pacific basin in particular have been focused on, in the case of South Korea, looking at the free trade agreements and dealing with any residual issues like marking, translation, and capacity around Canada forest products, This is to ensure there are no technical barriers to the robust exercise Canada has made overall in terms of signing on to more than 38 free trade agreements. For the forest sector this has to mean increased demand. We've seen that in significant ways for China and we're very hopeful in Korea. As other agreements become ripe for discussion and advancement, we believe that the forest sector has probably not been for some time in a better overall position in terms of technology and expanding market opportunities to take full advantage of what that presents.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, and thank you, Ms. Perkins.

We go now to Mr. Caron for seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

I'd like to get back to the National Energy Board 2015-2016 report on plans and priorities. On page 20, in the section that discusses energy regulations and subprograms, the implementation of various projects, including BillC-46, is mentioned. The report discusses various strategic outcomes, programs, the continuous improvement of regulations, transparency and available information. The National Energy Board is going to be given greater responsibility. However, when we look at the evolution of planned expenditures between 2015 and 2018, we see that almost all of the subprograms will see a marked decline in financial and human resources of approximately 15%.

On page 17, where energy regulation is discussed, we see that planned expenditures will drop from $49.5 to $39.2 million over three years. The same thing is true of jobs. The number of full-time equivalent positions will go from 335 to 283. The same thing applies to the implementation and monitoring of energy regulations and their application, as well as to energy information programs and internal services.

Almost all of the National Energy Board sectors will see their human and financial resources diminish by approximately 15%, despite the fact that they will be given increased responsibility.

I would like to know how the National Energy Board is going to be able to attain its objectives, given these circumstances.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

I do not agree at all that there is a decrease in resources in Budget 2015. In fact, we fully acknowledge that we need to invest more in the National Energy Board.

I should say that obviously the pipeline safety act, Bill C-46 in particular, addresses the pillars of incident prevention, preparedness, response, liability, and compensation. I am satisfied, following the review by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources, that the bill, as it's reported back to the House of Commons, reflects this government's commitment, frankly, to pipeline safety, prevention, preparedness, response, and liability, and that the resources are in place to enable the National Energy Board to sufficiently do its consultations with communities, and in terms of the powers of enforcement, which is another key component—

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you, Minister; since my speaking time is limited, I would like to put the following question to you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

I understand.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

You said that resources had been increased. And yet on page 17, budgetary financial resources and human resources for the Energy Regulation Program are set out. In the main estimates, the figure of $49.6 million is cited, but according to planned expenditures, this amount will be decreased by 2017-2018 and will drop to $39.2 million. That is a cut of almost 21%.

As for human resources in 2015-2016, the figure of 335 full-time equivalent positions will drop to 283 in 2017-2018. I note that the same thing is true for all of the programs and subprograms. The report on plans and priorities lists marked declines over three years.

How can you say that there is going to be an increase in allocated resources, particularly in the case of these programs, which are at the very core of the work of the National Energy Board?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

The budget that followed the main estimates made a commitment for $80 million over the course of five years. As I said earlier, I'm satisfied that this level of resources committed to the National Energy Board, by all accounts, based on our consultations, obviously appears to be the right figure to satisfy the important arm's-length work that the National Energy Board does. In addition to having fixed timelines, there are plenty of resources there to meet the test of public confidence, and speaking to the budget, the additional resources over the next five years will obviously help us achieve that goal.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

As Minister of Natural Resources, could you give us some idea of how the additional $80 million will be allocated? Of course, that is not mentioned anywhere in the report on plans and priorities, but I expect that the government has some idea of where it wants to spend these $80 million.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Just so it's clear, funding announced in the budget is going to strengthen the NEB's oversight of Canada's energy transportation infrastructure and will be focused on enhancing its ability to pursue safety and environmental protection.

The additional steps, of course, are going to be needed to support the LNG industry and other natural gas exporters, given that there have been a couple of key policy decisions, in particular to extend the export licences from 25 years to 40 years. Doing that will improve regulatory certainty but will obviously place additional demands on the National Energy Board. This builds on Canada's advantage, in addition to the accelerated capital cost allowance for LNG.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Minister, I only have a minute left and I would like to go back to that point. The report on plans and priorities shows declining resources and human resources. You tell us that there is money, but you talk about specific programs, regarding liquified natural gas, among others.

I would like to know whether a part of this $80 million will be used to offset the planned cut to expenditures and human resources indicated in the report on plans and priorities under energy regulation, information on energy and internal services. We need to be reassured on this.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Let me move beyond the speculation, with the greatest of respect, and let me inform the committee, as I'm sure it already understands, that approximately 95% of the NEB's funding is from costs recovered from the energy industry. The majority of the funds used for compliance and oversight activities will help ensure the safety and security of energy infrastructure. Part of this funding will also be used to help deploy staff across Canada to engage more closely with local communities and partners such as first responders and municipal governments.

We obviously understand completely the higher profile, and rightly so, and the desire of first nation communities and municipalities to be engaged in energy infrastructure projects that may impact them. The resources are in place to ensure that the National Energy Board has the capacity, including the human resources, to meet existing and new demands over the next five years.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Caron.

Mr. Regan, you have up to seven minutes. Go ahead, please.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister, and your staff, for appearing here today. By the way congratulations to you and your wife on the birth of your daughter.That's delightful.

Now speaking of matters that are somewhat young in nature, I'm hoping that you won't be sticking your tongue out at us today.

Under the heading “Expenditures by Strategic Outcome and Program”, can you tell us what the 2013-14 expenditures were for protection for Canadians and natural resources?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Based on the question put by the member, that's an unfortunate opening remark. I hope it was meant in jest. I didn't do that. If he's compelled to raise it, if stretching your face after flubbing the back part of an answer captured by a mischievous reporter is something that he wants to emphasize here at committee, I guess he has that luxury.

Let me talk more pointedly about Natural Resources Canada and the broader questions around things like energy infrastructure and things that—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chair, maybe the minister could answer my question.... It was in jest and I'm sorry that I seem to have upset him, but let's turn to the question that I asked because he does have the responsibility to be held accountable here for his actions, for the state of the department, and for the estimates.

The question was this. Can you tell us what the 2013-14 expenditures were for protection for Canadians and natural resources?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Well, thank you. One example that comes to mind would be the enhanced national earthquake monitoring line item. Ensuring the safety and security of Canadians is a top priority. We invested on this point $11.4 million to upgrade earthquake monitoring equipment with state-of-the-art systems that are faster, more reliable, and more cost-effective. This investment is focused on enhancing Canada's earthquake monitoring capacity and enabling faster alerts for critical infrastructure operators and first responders. By way of example—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

That's not what I asked. The answer, of course, is that is was $65.5—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Regan—