We love our firefighters.
Evidence of meeting #58 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #58 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I have two other quick questions with the time I have left.
Dr. Innes, I was very interested in your presentation about the first nations. Are you from British Columbia?
Professor and Dean, Faculty of Forestry, University of British Columbia
Yes.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
In your province, the vast majority of first nation claims have not been settled, so I guess I'm querying.... It's a nice theory that the first nations should be involved in the forest management of their lands, but first of all they have to be granted control over those lands. My understanding also is that there are conditions, such as that they need a land management agreement.
Do you know whether those kinds of discussions are ongoing within the forestry sector, as a push for quicker settlement of those claims?
Professor and Dean, Faculty of Forestry, University of British Columbia
Yes, they are. Very often there are interim measures agreed to during the treaty process whereby control of the land is given to the first nations, so they get the management rights. It's like a limited tenure—it is a tenure.
We've also seen quite a number of first nations taking on non-renewable forest licences in British Columbia and becoming involved even in areas outside their own territories—companies doing extremely successful work, often on other first nations' territories but also on crown lands that are not under an immediate claim. As you probably know, all land in British Columbia is under some sort of claim, and quite a lot of it is under more than one claim. There is some dispute over the land.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Duncan.
We go now to Ms. Perkins for up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I think the first question I'll ask is of Iain Macdonald.
You made the statement, with respect to HR and skills, that you very much required to have a properly trained workforce and that you're finding deficiencies in that area moving forward. What do you see the government's role being in this? Is this something you're asking us to consider assisting with, or is there something under way? Would you like to explain what that comment meant?
Managing Director, Centre for Advanced Wood Processing, University of British Columbia, and Chair, Wood Manufacturing Council
Sure. Thank you.
I think the role is to continue to fund the labour market studies, which have been very beneficial for understanding, as Ms. Block said, the transitions in the industry and responding to them. We have had very positive results with pre-employment training for disadvantaged groups and equity groups, as I mentioned. A major issue for companies is finding skilled employees and entry-level workers.
In terms of other roles, I think there's a potential for greater coordination between the various post-secondary institutions and industry in Canada so that there is some kind of laddering system for people to progress from high school education through various kinds of post-secondary training, and then possibly continue it through professional programs as they continue to work.
The fluid nature of technology and today's markets is such that it's no longer enough to have a four-year degree to serve you for your career. You're going to need at various times to take upgrading in your training. We're trying to do that in some ways through e-learning, for example, and blended learning, which combines e-learning with face-to-face training for shorter periods. But those kinds of programs are difficult to make sustainable, sometimes.
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
Thank you very much.
I'm in a limited timeframe, being at the end, so I'd like to get a couple of other questions in.
Ms. Berube, with respect to the comments you've been making with the question you have been given on firefighters, I've been on this now since the beginning of this study, asking the questions about firefighters.
I've been, until very recently, in a municipality for 17 years. Firefighters are of a different opinion from the industry. Recently, in having discussions with the firefighters I find they are much more concerned about the lack of testing, with the toxins, the laminates, the glues, all of those sorts of things. They are not convinced that there has been enough study done about what might be composing that large...what were you calling it when you put them all together? I suppose it's laminating all the wood together by glue, or some such thing.
The firefighters have been of the opinion that the flashpoint in fires is faster with new product. As we're getting away from natural product and into homes now with laminate floors, with nylon carpets, with whatever the products are—the new and innovative stuff—their flashpoints are quicker and the toxins are higher. They are very concerned about that. They are concerned that people are subjected to fire quicker and to toxins quicker, and that they will be too on the job.
What's the process for you to get the approvals to introduce the products and the change in construction? I heard you say that the firefighting industry was involved, but is it the fire marshal? Is it fire chiefs? Do we know who's involved?
Executive Director, Ontario Wood WORKS!
I'm not quite.... Is what you're saying, “involved in educating the firefighters” or is it the research part of it?
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
It's to change the building code to allow products to be used. Who's involved in that from the firefighting industry?
Executive Director, Ontario Wood WORKS!
Oh, from the firefighting industry.
A lot of new products are tested with NRC and go through rigorous.... They literally burn these products and they have to have one- or two-hour fire resistance before they are approved. There is quite rigorous testing.
I think a lot of the problems with the firefighters started with the I-joists in homes; that's a smaller, stick frame built component. But as we move into mass timber and then these larger structures, they just char, as Iain mentioned, and they are safe.
Chief Len Garis in B.C. has done a lot of studies on how products are evolving and the precautions put in place. It has been amped up. I know there are even new glue products, too. The industry is working on this.
Conservative
Pat Perkins Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON
You can appreciate what we're hearing from firefighters. We like to say it's the firefighters' association or it's the chiefs of the fire departments. Who is sitting at the table when these decisions are being made? I'd love to have that answer, if you ever can find out.
Thank you.
Executive Director, Ontario Wood WORKS!
I'm not sure if the fire chiefs are. You're talking about at testing and so on. No, they probably aren't, but there's the education piece. There's a definite link missing as products are approved.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mrs. Perkins.
We go now, finally, to Ms. Duncan, who'll be the final questioner for this group of witnesses.
Go ahead, please, Ms. Duncan, for up to five minutes.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thanks.
I wonder if I could just follow up on the questions that my colleague just asked. I just remember the issue that the firefighters raised with me. I'm not saying this to be negative about wood. I know we're starting to build arenas now again with beautiful wood, which we used to do. But in the move to the bigger buildings, with wood instead of metal, what they're concerned about, as I understand it is the frame, with the ones that go up and down. With the wood construction they're going to be closer together, so if a firefighter is stuck in a building, he can't get out because they're so close together. I'm just sharing that. Those are the kinds of concerns they are raising with a number of us, and that should be looked at.
I wanted to follow up with Dr. Innes and Mr. Macdonald about your call for intensified engagement of the federal government in monitoring. Historically, the federal government used to be a lot more engaged in forests and forestry. I'm just wondering what specific recommendations you might make about that. I know there are drone companies in my own riding and they would like to be engaged in that. I hear lots of concerns in my jurisdiction, which is Alberta, not with the forest industry but with the oil and gas sector because we're losing so much potential wood product by the clearance for seismic and for oil sands and just conventional oil and gas. I'm wondering whether that's a factor that is being looked at in the monitoring as well. It may be particular to my province because it may be that we're losing, but I know in northern British Columbia now there's a lot of gas activity.
I wonder if you could just give us a little bit more detail about what you might recommend for a role of the federal government in the increased state of the forests so that it could support both the sustainability of the forest and the wood industry—and anybody else could also add to that.
Managing Director, Centre for Advanced Wood Processing, University of British Columbia, and Chair, Wood Manufacturing Council
I'm going to defer to Dr. Innes on that one.
Professor and Dean, Faculty of Forestry, University of British Columbia
Thank you, Iain.
I think the primary concern that you're referring to is called cumulative impacts. That is where we're seeing a lot of different types of development and they're all regulated independently, and the result is that no one has really a clear overview of the land base and what's going on on the land base. Foresters can have a really nice plan and they will put areas aside for reserves, and then an oil and gas company comes in and puts a survey line right through the middle of it, and then puts a road in, then a pipeline, and then the forestry company suddenly finds it has access to timber that was previously uneconomic, so we get these effects multiplying.
What I think the federal government could do is undertake research or sponsor research that would enable us to really analyze cumulative impacts more effectively in different jurisdictions. That's something that could be done by the CFS or it could be done through the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council. I was actually involved in a study like that in northeast B.C. about 10 years ago, sponsored by NSERC, but it was a pilot study and it wasn't taken any further. I know many first nations would be very interested in that. I know many government agencies would be very interested.
I think, then, if we find good methods to do this, they need to be built into environmental assessment exercises so it's built into the review system that's done at both the provincial and the federal levels so that we can actually determine what the future impacts are likely to be. When we talk about maybe opening up a new area for a mine or for forestry activities, what's likely to happen and what other values on that land are going to be affected in the future by opening up that development?
It's a big area of research. It's very complicated. We don't actually have good answers yet, so I think the federal government could really help us understand those types of things better.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Okay.
Thank you very much to all the witnesses for coming today. It was very interesting input and it'll be very helpful to us in our report.
Thank you, too, from Ontario Wood WORKS!, Ms. Berube; from Kruger Incorporated, Monsieur Archambault; from the Wood Manufacturing Council, Mr. Macdonald; and from the University of British Columbia, Dean Innes.
We'll suspend the committee just for a couple of minutes, and then come back with our witnesses from our next group.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Good afternoon, again, committee members.
We have with us our last group of witnesses. They are from the Témiscouata forest-wood-materials network. There are three witnesses from that organization: Guylaine Sirois, Roger Robitaille, and Caroline Roy.
Thank you all for being with us by teleconference. Thank you very much for being here.
As you see, we have photos of them, so we can see and hear whom we are talking to. We will go ahead with the presentation. We have just a little over 20 minutes left. I understand that Ms. Sirois will give the presentation.
Go ahead. Then we will go to questions and comments. Thank you very much, again, for being with us.