Evidence of meeting #58 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Crockatt.
We go now to M. Caron, followed by Ms. Block, and then Ms. Duncan.
Go ahead, Monsieur Caron.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to all of you for testifying.
Ms. Berube, I'll start with you. I really like the architectural possibilities that wood construction offers. It also provides a lot more flexibility than the more limited means we had before, for example with concrete.
However, I'd like you to talk about how competitive wood construction is with the more traditional methods, like concrete, for example. In light of the current price of wood—softwood lumber in particular—I think that wood construction has a competitive advantage.
Is that true?
4:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Ontario Wood WORKS!
It depends on the type of building. You cannot equate all buildings equally in pricing, but if it's designed properly from the beginning, wood should be competitive, if not cost saving. It's like any building if it's designed right for performance. Some large buildings, you get into.... We've done a lot on schools, in getting more wood in schools, but when you get to the larger institutions, you can't compete. You know, there's a place for concrete and there's a place where wood can be done. In the six-storey, actually, that's one real competitive edge where, once the developers get going, build, and adapt to the new technology.... In B.C. they're showing 15% to 20% in cost savings, so that brings in affordable housing and developers are really looking at it. It gives alternatives.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
However, with the recovery of the market, it's possible that as a result of the increase in demand, for softwood lumber in particular, the production costs, the construction costs will increase. Does this potential increase worry you? When do you think the industry will hit the critical point?
4:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Ontario Wood WORKS!
Part of our whole initiative and even what we do at Wood WORKS! is trying to get more domestic use of wood. It's because we have relied on the U.S. for so long, and 80% to 85% of our wood goes south of the border. Look at the softwood lumber disputes, competition, and the ups and downs the industry has had over the years.
No, we're not that worried about that because we're trying to displace, actually have the wood industry rely more on Canadian markets and use more wood here. So, no, I don't think there's that much of a concern about that.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Earlier we heard about concerns regarding the use of wood, a flammable material. In past years, we heard from fire prevention officials who were concerned about the health hazards. You touched on that a little.
However, where are we with research and development? I know that the wood is treated, for example, with fire resistant products that can slow the appearance of flames in the case of a fire. Is there additional research to find new ways to improve this protection against fires and to reassure fire prevention services or the general public about the use of wood in construction?
4:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Ontario Wood WORKS!
There's always ongoing R and D, and some companies are coming out with flame-resistant products.
We have one fire chief, Len Garis, in B.C. I'm not sure if everyone's heard of him. He's done a lot of research with the University of the Fraser Valley, looking at the past 1,000 fires. If it's properly sprinkled, and as I mentioned, all the precautions are put in place, there are no deaths and people aren't hurt. That's the key to mitigating fires.
Actually, once the buildings are in place and built, they're safe. It's during construction where the problem is. We have a key focus on getting more ways to mitigate when we're working with the insurance industry. The Province of Ontario right now is putting guidelines in place for fire safety on construction sites. The way to handle it is to prevent it versus dealing with the fires after.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you.
I have a question for Mr. Innes.
I want to make sure I understand what you said, Mr. Innes. When you spoke about the economic benefit the industry could draw from carbon, were you alluding to the carbon tax, carbon pricing or the fact that wood-based materials, which are effectively a form of carbon sequestration, can benefit the industry?
In debates on climate change we have heard a lot about carbon sinks and about the fact that the forestry industry could benefit from some credits or provisions regarding carbon pricing.
Could you clarify and, if applicable, tell us what are the current economic benefits?
4:40 p.m.
Professor and Dean, Faculty of Forestry, University of British Columbia
The forest industry in British Columbia has already benefited from carbon credits. There were carbon sales made by the Pacific Carbon Trust before it was closed down, which was an arm of the British Columbian government.
When we look globally we've seen a huge increase in the number of carbon schemes. There are carbon schemes now in Quebec, in British Columbia, I believe, also in Ontario, and then down the west coast of the U.S.A. Increasingly we are finding that when a manager of a forest is looking at the overall income that they can get for that forest, then carbon is becoming a significant factor in determining whether or not to harvest in a particular area.
Clearly the value of the wood is going to be higher in most cases than the value of the carbon, but then there are also a number of other benefits that would come from preserving that forest for carbon benefits so we would have, for example, water or biodiversity or recreation, a range of different values. I think what we're finding more is that it is in community-managed forests where those types of values are being looked at.
In terms of a federal scheme, Canada, I think, is some way away from a full scheme across the whole of the country, unlike a few other jurisdictions. But sooner or later I believe we will be moving in that direction. I can't predict what's going to happen, obviously—that's for the Parliament to decide—but I'm sure we will be moving in that direction because that's where the rest of the world is going.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Innes.
Merci, Monsieur Caron.
We go now to Ms. Block for up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.
May 12th, 2015 / 4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I join my colleagues in welcoming you here. We are nearing the end of this study, one which we embarked upon a number of weeks ago to confirm what we understand has been the renewal and the transformation of the forest industry.
My first question is going to be for you, Mr. Macdonald. When an industry experiences the kind of transformation and renewal that the forest industry has, I can only imagine that the same has to happen in regard to the workforce and the skill set that is going to be needed in terms of the new technology and the innovation that is being developed. I know there is potentially, or perhaps some different jobs available now in the industry than there were, and I do understand that a significant amount of funding for the council has been through the Government of Canada's sector council program.
I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about some of the steps that have been taken to address the need for setting national standards for worker competencies. Could you perhaps speak to the change in the forest industry in terms of the skill set that is needed?
4:45 p.m.
Managing Director, Centre for Advanced Wood Processing, University of British Columbia, and Chair, Wood Manufacturing Council
Certainly. When the Wood Manufacturing Council came into existence—I believe it was in 2003—we did a sector study. Every five years thereafter we've done a major labour market study to look at the changes that have taken place. We are also in the process of updating some national occupational standards for the industry.
Given the changes that are coming to the industry through the tall wood buildings and the increase of structural wood use in non-residential construction, I think we'll be seeing an evolution of the roles in the industry. We already have pre-manufactured housing and panellized homes. We may see a job emerge that's some kind of hybrid between an architectural technologist and an assembler, for example.
Those are things that are being confirmed and investigated on an ongoing basis through these labour market studies, through the occupational standards updating, and also through some of the pre-employment training programs that we are rolling out in different provinces.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK
Thank you.
Dr. Innes, I have a question for you. I recognize that as dean of the UBC faculty of forestry, you are encouraging greater international involvement of the faculty and working to entrench your position as one of the leading faculties of forestry in the world. Good on you for doing that.
I also understand that UBC and Natural Resources Canada have several science projects together, including some funded through Genome Canada, and that there is staff housed at the university in association with the UBC forest economics and policy analysis research unit. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that.
4:45 p.m.
Professor and Dean, Faculty of Forestry, University of British Columbia
That last item you mentioned is, I'm afraid, a bit out of date. That particular unit has been disbanded, but we do have a number of staff from Environment Canada and Natural Resources Canada. There were more before. There are fewer now. That's not because of a breakdown of the relationship. It was a reconsolidating of the office space within the federal government.
That relationship has been very valuable to us, and it has enabled scientists from the federal government to benefit from the interaction with large numbers of students, particularly graduate students. They are able to build much larger teams than they would have been able to build in federal research institutes. They are able to access very bright young people whom they might not previously have had access to. We've been very pleased with the way that has worked.
I should say that we are working together with the Canadian Forest Service, FPInnovations, and the provincial government to find ways that we might combine our expertise in the future to better access international funding, which previously none of us individually could have applied for. This is an area that is developing quite rapidly. We're not there yet. I actually met with someone from Western Economic Diversification Canada last night, and talked to him about what we were planning. This is something new and it will certainly take us in the international direction.
I believe Canada has a really good story to tell internationally, that we are leaders in the field of forest management, forest science, and forest products, and that we could make major contributions to other countries that are struggling. We know of many countries that have problems with governance, for example, corruption in the forest sector, illegal logging, and deforestation. I think we could help those countries do a lot better than they are currently, and in so doing, make the world a better place for all of us.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Innes, and thank you, Ms. Block.
We go now to Ms. Duncan for up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to a very interesting panel for giving us your time.
My first question is to Mr. Archambault. Kudos to you for innovating with the use of wood. I'm wondering if you could give us some guidance, because of course, when we do the committee reviews we're interested in making recommendations to the government on next steps they could take to support the forestry sector and products.
We have the Energy Star on appliances, yet we don't in any way trigger people to buy only those. I wonder if you'd give us any suggestions on measures the federal government could take to trigger the shift over to the kinds of packaging products you're making, as opposed to plastic.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Industrial Products Division, Kruger Inc.
Of course, at Kruger we are in packaging. We operate a liner board mill in Montreal as well as two packaging plants: one in Ville LaSalle and one in Brampton, Ontario. We make all kinds of cardboard boxes. In our plant in Brampton, Ontario, we have something like 20 trucks a day of pizza boxes leaving the plant to go all over eastern North America. It's quite impressive.
I think sustainability is what we need to promote. We talk about wood products and we talk about packaging. They're all products that are made from a sustainable resource.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Industrial Products Division, Kruger Inc.
Yes, our liner board, all of our packaging is 100% recycled.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Industrial Products Division, Kruger Inc.
We also have a fairly large use of recycled fibre in our tissue products, but we don't use recycled product in our publication paper grades anymore. We shut our plant down last November, mainly for economic reasons.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I would like to encourage you and all the panel members, if you think of other specifics or recommendations for our committee coming out of this, to submit those to us as well.
Ms. Berube, my colleague raised the issue about firefighters. I have been approached by the firefighters in my jurisdiction, who are deeply concerned about the shift. They're telling me that they have in fact not been consulted to the degree they would like to be. For example, they think that at least the shafts of the elevators should be cement. They're very worried about toxic fires with this cross laminated wood.
I wonder if you could tell us to what extent the firefighters have been included in these discussions about the shift to building bigger buildings with wood.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Ontario Wood WORKS!
Alberta, okay. In Ontario they have been extensively consulted, and the Ontario building code changes actually did mandate concrete stairwells. That was the push-back from the firefighters association.
Having said that, there has been extensive research done on building stairwells in mass timber and products that will be safe. B.C. has mandated it; the national building codes haven't.
A lot of this is education. We are targeting the firefighters' groups, because this is all new. It's just like the case with building officials. We've made a lot of progress with building officials, because they can roadblock a lot of these projects. But the firefighters need, and some groups are very willing and are starting, to listen and work with us.
But again, it's something new. They need to understand. Anybody facing change is going to be worried about it. In some cases, some of the firefighters are also using it to lobby for more equipment and new fire equipment. So there's always....