Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 4th, 2018

[Yasmin Abraham]

One of the things we try to do with technology from a homeowner basis to maximize the savings potential is to educate. If you're going to put in a new device, whether it's a heat pump or a smart thermostat, if that person doesn't know how to use it, you're not going to maximize the savings. We spend a lot of time educating homeowners in our communities about what we're installing. I think that's led to our savings success.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

That's all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, all, for being here today.

I'm going to start with Empower Me.

In the previous hour, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business talked about barriers that businesses faced. There was testimony that many businesses couldn't afford to get into these rebate programs because the upfront cost of the audit and the installation was too much, yet you're talking about how it's important to have that accountability in the program. You said half your work was with the private sector.

Do you see that problem, and if you do, how do you get around it?

[Karim Abraham]

Absolutely, we see that problem all the time and Len's point about having tenants and landlords at odds for who pays the energy bill and who should front the cost of capital to do these upgrades.

A common thing that we see...I think a really good example of a program that gets past all of this is PACE. It's a financing program that puts the burden on the property itself. It's tied to property taxes where the owner can invest long term into deep retrofits for a building and if that building is sold, that debt continues with that building.

It's a really nice mechanism for buildings that may not invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in capital to do energy efficiency because of that landlord/tenant, “What if I sell the building....” All these different barriers break through that completely, and there's financing available to do that.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

You talked a lot about energy poverty, which I found very interesting. We had a program for homeowners in Canada, the eco-energy retrofit homes program, that was just that. You had the audit. You invested your money. You got your rebate. It was very successful. We've heard testimony earlier in this study from other people who said it would be better to have a tax incentive.

I'm just trying to get an idea and wonder if you have any opinions on whether a tax incentive or a rebate would be better. I'm thinking for people in energy poverty, tax incentives aren't of much value because they're probably not paying much tax. I wonder if you could comment on that choice.

[Yasmin Abraham]

Yes. Can I choose neither?

I agree with you. I don't think the tax incentive is the right tool.

The issue I see with rebates is that, again, the upfront cost is needed from the homeowner. It's that same story we've been talking about. They simply don't have the ability to put in that upfront cost and the issue, and what we need to solve for them, is their housing. By reducing their bills, we are increasing their disposable income and, in lower-income and medium-income households, that income can go directly back into the economy.

By investing in the infrastructure of these homes, you're solving that issue in a more equitable and more effective way.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

I'm going to turn to Mr. Craig now.

This BuildUp technology sounds very interesting. I've been hearing a lot about these new modular building techniques, whether it's with your new Buildcrete material or with wood. In one of the towns in my riding, we just had a hotel built that went up, in what seemed like days, because it was built somewhere else and moved there.

With your Buildcrete, are there any size restrictions on those buildings or could they be skyscrapers?

[David Craig]

We can't do skyscrapers, but we can go up to 12 storeys, so for multi-family, which is more typically three or four storeys to six storeys, we can double the density.

In a competition in the U.S., for technologies that are advanced and being looked at for the future, we had this technology and it came second, only because it's not yet commercialized. Otherwise, it would have been at the top out of 50 competitors. There is a very significant opportunity for this technology and we're finding the market is responding very favourably to it.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I keep hearing more and more about hybrid building technologies, where we build partly with wood and partly with concrete. Would this technology lend itself to that, where you would have part of the structure being glulam beams and the floors made out of Buildcrete? Is that something you could envision or is it just an all or nothing technology?

[David Craig]

The importance of the technology is its simplicity. The simplicity comes from the panel itself being a complete solution to floors, walls, panels, roofs, and even foundations. It's not something to be mixed. Many of the existing technologies will have 10 to 18 steps involved in the production of the building and we're down to four steps. The simplicity is what's attracting the developers, the architects and the market.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Have you had interest from American—I know there are some big American companies that are just building up now to change the world of construction. Are you in touch with them with this Canadian technology?

[David Craig]

Obviously, we've been in touch with them to get into this competition in the U.S., but we're in the very earliest stages of commercialization. We've started introducing ourselves to developers and architects and we're finding a tremendous response. We have a long way to go to acquire the market and to complete the commercialization process.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thanks. I will have to stop you there.

Mr. Tan.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

Improved energy efficiency helps households and businesses and institutions save money, be more competitive and have a better quality of life. It is also the cleanest way to meet the increased demand for energy. The concept of energy efficiency is very clear and straightforward. The benefit is also very obvious. However, the committee has learned from many witnesses that there's still a big job to do to promote, among the general public and stakeholders, the awareness, understanding and participation. Of course, there's a share of that job for the government to undertake.

I want to ask you both a very general question. Do you have any suggestions on how the federal government can accelerate these energy efficiency programs in all sectors of the economy, not just the construction industry? How might the government work closely with partners and associations and businesses like yours to pursue a more coordinated strategy on energy efficiency?

My question is quite general and pretty wide. I'm hoping that both of you can give us some advice.

[Len Horvath]

Perhaps I can start off on the points I brought up—the federal government taking a leadership position and insisting that for any lease it brings in, for spaces acquired through a leasing program, it adopts green leasing language in all of it. I think it would be ideal if they could unilaterally mandate that green lease clauses be part of any commercial lease to strengthen the mandate that owners might have to improve efficiency in buildings. That would apply to their rental buildings. However, I think if you're developing programs that are targeting existing buildings, you also have to work with provinces and utilities to bring in sustainable incentive programs that will encourage energy efficiency in the existing building stock.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

[Karim Abraham]

To add to that, we would like to see a much more holistic, long-term approach to energy efficiency. In my testimony, I said that funding that's coming and going in the market, that's in and out, has been detrimental to the industry. Having a long-term, holistic approach to funding would help spur additional innovation within the private sector. We'd like to see the government really focus on the goals and the implementation of energy efficiency, not the six or seven steps to get to that point. The private sector can and will innovate for the most efficient way to achieve those goals. It will be through innovation.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

In your opinion, are the stakeholders, the general public, really open to the idea of adopting high energy efficiency practices or technology in the provinces, or even in Canada?

[Yasmin Abraham]

I definitely think so. In our experience, we have gained success because we have led people on a journey. It's not an event. I think once people start seeing the increase in comfort, the increase in safety, and the decrease in their bills, that's when you start to really get momentum.

[Karim Abraham]

Just anecdotally, people don't really care about energy efficiency. People care about the benefits, the things that come out of energy efficiency. Energy efficiency is not very tangible. A warmer home is more tangible. A lower bill is more tangible. Less mould in their house is tangible. A lot of benefits come out of energy efficiency. I think focusing on those rather than energy efficiency as a single thing has been a big part of why we've had success.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I think I will go back to the question of incentives or tax rebates. I suppose the witnesses from B.C. agree with these comments. Do you?

[Len Horvath]

We do by and large.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I was hoping so.

[Len Horvath]

There's a wide range of folks out there with different motivations and different abilities to fund activities. That's where the challenge comes from. You need to stimulate people to do something.

My particular business is lighting. The LED technology has been truly transformational in our industry. You have energy efficiency gains in the range of 50% to 90% just from introducing the technology.

There are, however, other benefits. We did a school a number of years back into which we introduced dimmable lighting, which comes free with LED technology and fixtures, and the teachers just loved it. As a result, schools in that district followed that standard, just because there was something new that benefited their ability to present material on screens in a classroom.

That's just one example. There are so many innovations possible.