Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 6th, 2018

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

In April, when the finance minister announced that you were spending $4.5 billion in tax dollars to purchase the existing pipeline, he said specifically on May 29 that shovels would be in the ground and construction would start immediately. That was his quote.

How many kilometres of pipeline were built on the Trans Mountain expansion this past summer?

[Amarjeet Sohi]

Oil is to Alberta what art is to Ontario and aerospace is to Quebec.

It is so disappointing to see that, when we made the decision to invest $4.5 billion to move this project forward so we can support the oil sector in Alberta the proper way, every single Conservative member of the federal Conservative Party did not support that decision—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Your promise was that construction would start this past summer.

[Amarjeet Sohi]

—and it's so disappointing to see that they're willing to invest $12 billion and write off $3 billion to support an industry. But when it comes to the Alberta oil and gas sector, they back off. That is the record of the Conservatives—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

The answer is that zero kilometres of the Trans Mountain expansion has been built—

[Amarjeet Sohi]

We're very proud that we have invested $4.5 billion—

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Ms. Stubbs, allow the witness to finish answering the question.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Will you commit to when this consultation will be complete?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair. If the minister is just going to drag on the clock, it's not fair that Mrs. Stubbs stands there and lets him drag it on. She has a number of questions to get to, and if he wants to talk and waste time, that's not on Mrs. Stubbs'....

I don't agree. You know how much I respect you, but I do not agree that you keep cutting her off and challenging her like that. I do not agree with that and I'd like to bring that to your attention, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

That is duly noted, Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

You know I like you and you know I respect you, but....

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I appreciate that, and the respect is mutual around this table. You know that as well, and I agree. I'm simply trying to allow the witness to answer the question. On two occasions, Ms. Stubbs—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

He's not answering question, so I'll go to my next question.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

I'm addressing Mr. Schmale's point of order right now. Thank you, Mrs. Stubbs.

On two occasions, Mrs. Stubbs interrupted the minister early on in his answers and didn't give him an opportunity to answer, which I didn't think was appropriate. That's why I intervened, and I'll do it again if I feel it's necessary.

Thank you.

Ms. Stubbs, please continue.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

In the court ruling that your indigenous consultation on the Trans Mountain expansion failed, the judge said that the concerns are “specific and focussed” and that this may “make the corrected consultation process brief and efficient while ensuring it is meaningful. The end result may be a short delay” in the project. That's what the judge said.

Will you commit to the end date for your timeline on consultation with indigenous communities and commit to when construction will start on the Trans Mountain expansion?

[Amarjeet Sohi]

We have instructed the National Energy Board to undertake a review of the main shipping, its impact on the marine environment—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

That's tanker traffic. I asked about indigenous consultation.

[Amarjeet Sohi]

The second part of the court challenge was the issues around phase three consultation with indigenous communities. We are undertaking that consultation. We will make sure we don't repeat the mistakes of the past and that we have a meaningful, two-way consultation to understand the concerns of communities and offer them accommodation where accommodation is possible.

It's very important for the interests of the oil and gas sector and for the interests of workers and job creation in the oil and gas sector that we get this right. That's my focus. That's why I'm reaching out to indigenous leaders. I have personally met with 40 indigenous communities to hear their concerns directly. We're going to do this right, because not doing this right will put this project in the same position we have seen it in the past. It is in the best interests of Alberta's oil sector and of families in Alberta that we get this —

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Will you commit to construction starting in 2019?

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

We're going to have to move on. That's all the time you have, Mrs. Stubbs.

Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

You mentioned you're from Alberta. I'm from British Columbia, so I'm glad you touched on forestry. We hear precious little about forestry in the news and from this government, so I'm glad you mentioned it.

We've heard a lot about the low price of oil over the past few months, but as you mentioned, the price of lumber has been almost cut in half in the last six months. I don't hear anything about it from this government. We have mills closing everywhere across the country. We have mills cutting back on their hours. As you touched on, this isn't just the low prices, but they're paying illegal tariffs that weren't fixed under the new USMCA agreement. Fires and pine beetles are now attacking Alberta and threatening the rest of the boreal forest.

I'm going to try to offer some practical solutions here and see what your government is prepared to do.

One practical way the federal government could help these forest communities across the country is by providing funds for thinning of forests at the urban-forest interface. We had a film and report in British Columbia 14 years ago that basically told British Columbia they had to do all this work around communities to make them fire safe. Only 10% of that work has been done because the provincial government felt they didn't have the funds to do it. We've seen the results. We're talking about billions of dollars here. It is not cheap work, but it would put thousands of forest workers back to work and it would make our communities safer.

You mentioned the strategic innovation fund. How much money is allocated in that fund—as I say, we need billions—to do this sort of work? It would be something the federal government could do today to help forestry workers across Canada.

[Amarjeet Sohi]

Thank you so much for that question. I was in Williams Lake last week and met with some forestry sector leaders to talk about the challenges facing the forestry sector. We were there to make a funding announcement to encourage more indigenous businesses to actually participate. This is a very important sector for our economy, particularly in rural and isolated communities as a source of employment.

As part of the fall economic statement, $100 million has been allocated through the strategic investment fund, particularly focused on forestry. I met with the forestry ministers in September in Halifax and my ministry and the ministry in British Columbia are co-chairing a working group of all ministries throughout the country on how we can better respond to and manage fires. We are waiting for the conclusion of that discussion. They will be reporting back to us at the end of December.

As you also may know, through the softwood lumber action plan we are investing $867 million to support workers and communities to focus on diversifying to other markets under Minister Carr. Obviously this is part of his new portfolio and he is focused on it. We really want to help producers get access to new markets.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay, I'll move on to another practical suggestion on how to get Canadian resource workers back to work. We have heard a lot in the news lately, especially in The Globe and Mail and on CBC, about abandoned and orphaned oil and gas wells, particularly in Alberta, obviously, but also in B.C. and Saskatchewan. The C.D. Howe Institute estimates more than 155,000 oil and gas wells have no economic potential and will require reclamation. The estimated cost of that reclamation is about $300,000 per well. If you do the math, it comes out to $47 billion. Some people put the estimate overall at over $100 billion.

As you know, a lot of these are orphaned wells where the companies have vanished and the government is left to clean up. Since your government talks continually about making polluters pay, these are toxic messes that need to be cleaned up. I'm all behind making polluters pay. It's something the NDP really has championed in this country. I'm just wondering if you have a plan to help the provinces clean up this mess. Again, this would put thousands of oil sector support workers back to work.

Is there anything you could do in the future to make sure that it's the industry that cleans up its own mess and not the people of Canada?

[Amarjeet Sohi]

Thank you for that question. I will definitely take that back and have discussions with my officials. I have met with industry folks this week to talk about abandoned oil wells or the liabilities they have to clean up the wells they own. Absolutely, industry should be paying that cost, but for those wells that are abandoned, in 2017 we made $30 million available to the Province of Alberta, which has unlocked close to $300 million of cleanup that they are undertaking to—

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

We need about 10 times that, 1,000 times more.