Natural Resources Committee on April 30th, 2019

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

That's seven minutes, Chair.

Yes, it is. That was my concluding comment.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

—working with the new government.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Cannings.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

I'm just going to start with some follow-up questions. The last time you were here, I gave you three suggestions that you might want to consider in the budget. Having now seen the budget, I just wanted to follow up with those.

One is about home retrofits. We all know that energy efficiency is one of the best ways to reduce our greenhouse gas footprints in Canada. We had a very successful program here started by the Conservative government in the previous parliaments, the eco-energy retrofit program. Its last iteration had $400 million in the 2011 budget. Unfortunately it was cancelled and hasn't been brought up again by this Liberal government. First, it seemed that retrofits were kicked over to the provinces in the pan-Canadian framework, and in this budget, there's an item for $300 million that is being put down under the municipalities through the FCM.

I'm rather confused and concerned that the federal government hasn't taken it upon itself to actually do this itself. This is leadership that I think Canadians expect from the federal government. With something as serious as climate action, we really need to do things quickly and boldly. It seems that this is just another example of putting things down onto the municipalities.

I'm confused. For one thing, in the book here, it says in one place that this is to be spent in the 2018-19 fiscal year. In another place it says it's to be spent in the 2019-20 year. That's not what I'm concerned about here. It's just one more confusion.

I guess now that this money has been transferred, I assume to FCM, how long will they have to spend this? Is this a one-year pot, like the $400-million pot that the Conservatives put up? Will municipalities have to sign on individually? I don't live in a municipality. How do I access this program? If we had done it nationally, those questions would not have to be asked.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Mr. Chair, thank you so much for that question because we believe that energy efficiency is one of the ways that we can reduce the impact of climate change and make our communities more resilient and reduce emissions.

The funding that you are referring to, the $1 billion that is being transferred—

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Well, it's $300 million for retrofits.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

A portion of that is going to the FCM. Then there's a gas tax transfer to municipalities as well that directly goes to municipalities. Funding is also available for energy efficiency through, as you mentioned, the bilateral agreements that we signed with the provinces, plus $300 million is to be managed by the FCM.

We're trying to supplement and not duplicate. We are trying to ensure that programs are already effectively working. FCM has managed a green municipal fund for the last decade or maybe longer, so we are just supplementing the good work the FCM is doing.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'm thinking about my riding. It's mainly tiny communities of 500 people, 1,000 people. These are not communities that have the resources, the people resources, the administration resources, to manage these programs on their own. Why are you putting it on them or the FCM rather than doing it through the federal government?

I'll move on now because I have a few more questions.

The last time I asked, I was looking for ways the federal government could support the forest industry. As you know, it's having hard times. We still have softwood lumber tariffs hanging over it. There are mills in my riding that are closing for periods of time this spring to save money because they've been hit as lumber prices have fallen.

The last time you were here, I suggested that the federal government could put up bold funding to help these communities and this industry and also keep them protected. We've had two years of forest fires in British Columbia alone that cost $1 billion a year just to fight the fires, and perhaps $10 billion in costs to deal with the aftermath.

The forest experts I've talked to suggest that we should be spending $1 billion each year in British Columbia to mitigate those actions. I see small, various programs to help the forest industry in this budget, but I don't see anything significant that will go after the safety of communities in forest environments. With most of the communities in British Columbia, for instance, and many communities across Canada, where the federal government could provide funding that would help the provinces and municipalities thin the forests in the interface areas, it would provide fibre for local mills, provide work and keep people safe.

I met with a community group in my riding a couple of weeks ago. They're one of Canada's top fire safe communities. They are desperate for any government help they can find. Right now, they get $500 a year. If they got $1,000 a year, they'd be happy. They're just a tiny community. I'm wondering why I don't see anything in this budget that is a significant help in terms of fire smarting these forest communities.

The Filmon report suggested an amount for British Columbia, an amount that has not even.... Only 15% has been sent. We're talking about billions of dollars here.

I'm wondering if there's any hope for the future that this federal government will step up and make some really meaningful contribution in this regard.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Minister, he didn't leave you very much time to answer that question, so if you could be very brief, I'd be grateful.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Yes. I look forward to engaging more on specific communities and projects, or ideas that you may have in mind.

I spoke with my counterparts, all the forestry ministers, a few months ago about having a joint working group to develop some proposals on how we can work together on those issues.

I can definitely follow up with you on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

You're out of time.

Mr. Whalen.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for coming, Minister.

In Mr. Cannings' remarks, he got almost to the point of asking you a question on how the Government of Canada is helping rural and remote communities in this budget.

I am looking at table A.2, Natural Resources Canada's 2019-20 transfer payments. It says that we're increasing those amounts from last year to this year from $14.2 million to $21.4 million.

Can you or your officials provide us with some colour as to how this money is going to help rural and remote communities access clear energy programs, and what type of administrative support might be available for smaller communities that don't have the in-house capacity to necessarily think through all the options themselves?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Mr. Chair, there are a number of programs available for rural, isolated and northern communities, whether they are in the area of getting those communities off diesel to new renewable sources of energy, or using waste wood to turn that into biofuels, or investments in indigenous communities to encourage indigenous economic development.

I'll ask my officials to elaborate a little more on that particular program.

[Cheri Crosby, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management and Services Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

I'm happy to do that.

Through you, Chair, the particular thing you're referring to is the clean energy for rural and remote communities program, which is increasing by $7 million from last year. It was launched in budget 2017, the year before, so we've been ramping it up.

In terms of some of the details, we have committed to supporting the deployment of renewable electricity technologies for $89 million.

We're going to be getting into demonstrating renewable technologies in electricity and heating, deploying bioheat technologies in rural and remote communities, supporting capacity building as well, and just encouraging energy efficiency through a variety of ways.

I'll leave it there, unless you want more detail.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

For the record, I think that probably responds to Mr. Cannings' earlier statement.

In terms of the extension of time in order to fully complete the consultation process with indigenous groups for the Trans Mountain expansion, you indicated that you've engaged former justice Iacobucci on this. My own province was obviously quite anxious about our own indigenous consultations with respect to offshore exploratory drilling, which have come to what we understand to be a successful conclusion.

Maybe you can provide us with some context on why it's important to provide this extension and what confidence you can give us, based on the experience of the government thus far, that our new processes in this regard are working, are compliant and will survive a court challenge.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Mr. Chair, we are very serious about how we engage with indigenous communities. We learn new things and look for new opportunities to engage in a meaningful way.

In this particular case, those drilling projects had a number of conditions that were imposed, and rightfully so. I think we have a lot of expertise in our offshore authorities and the bodies that do the consultations. We've continued to learn how to engage, and in some cases, some processes are better than others, so we will continue to explore and learn.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Is there anything in particular you'd like to elaborate on in terms of the three-week extension that might be able to give us some comfort that this is the right thing to do?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

I would say one of the ways of being open and responsive is to listen to your partners in a sincere way. They made a sincere request to us for an extension and we responded. I think our responding to the request that indigenous communities made to us shows our commitment.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

In terms of making Canada a global leader in mining, at a conference in Toronto just a couple of months ago I heard from mining leaders that they want to make sure that when they engage in scientific discussions with the government, they and the government are learning from past practice, moving forward and not reinventing the wheel.

Can you provide us some clarity on how your department is ensuring we're learning from past practice and continually improving our environmental regulatory process?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Mr. Chair, we were very happy to launch the Canadian mineral and metals plan. I'm pretty sure some of you have seen it. If you haven't, I would encourage you to look at it. We can provide copies. This work is a collaboration with industry and many stakeholders.

In an economy where more investments are being put into solar, wind and electric vehicles, the minerals and metals we have as Canadians have a huge potential for us to create thousands and thousands of well-paying jobs throughout the country and will help transition to a more clean and green economy.

This helps deal with climate change. It allows us to move forward on creating jobs as well as investments in new technologies, for example, in the extraction area. The first-ever all-electric gold mine, the Borden gold mine, is a good example of how we can work with industry to support that.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Schmale, I understand you're splitting your time again. You have five minutes this time.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister. I will be very quick.

Minister, I want to talk about your subsidies for zero-emission vehicles. As I'm sure you know, we have seen that none of the total electric vehicles are made in Canada. The only hybrid made in Canada is the Chrysler Pacifica.

Having said that, I went on the Nissan Canada website and I built myself the most basic Nissan Leaf, one of the best-selling electric vehicles on the planet, with no toys, nothing. It costs $817.74 a month.

Given that this is a mortgage payment for some, can you please explain this to me? I don't understand why we're subsidizing the very rich to purchase these vehicles that aren't even made in Canada.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Through you, Mr. Chair, there's a cap on the price for the vehicles that can be purchased through this incentive, and that price is to ensure that middle-class Canadians are able to access this incentive and that the wealthy Canadians, who can probably afford to buy—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, but that $817 includes the discount.