Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 29th, 2016

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Chair, I have probably a minute or two left. I'd give that to any of my colleagues who want to use it.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Tan?

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I'm done. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Mr. Serré, for about a minute.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to get your opinion on the emerging.... China has been spending quite a few dollars on nuclear. Can you elaborate a bit about that, and what effect that could have on us?

[Fred Dermarkar]

In terms of nuclear energy technology, China is a very large player in all sectors, and clearly in the nuclear sector it is emerging to be likely one of the biggest players in the world.

I'll offer a personal view on it, so this is not a view that reflects the membership of COG. I believe the opportunity we have with China is to participate in their program rather than compete head-on with their program. I think Canada has a lot to offer in that regard throughout the supply chain as well as with the specific technology.

I can tell you that in the CANDU Owners Group, we've been very successful with China in regard to our knowledge, our leadership, and our management program. At COG we run this program that's three weeks in duration, and for one of the weeks it involves travelling to a nuclear site and observing what was learned in the classroom, regarding leadership and safety culture practices.

CNNO in China liked our program so much that they put 140 of their managers through that program over the last three years. That's a huge cost to them, because we charge about $10,000 or $11,000, and then there are all the travel and expenses that go with that, so it's about $20,000 a person. That's an area where they very much liked what we had to offer, and it's on the human side of the business. In the case of China, as they're growing very rapidly, their ability to sustain the knowledge base and the leadership capability is going to be one of their challenges. We could, through our knowledge and experience, help to bridge that gap. That's just one example where we could use or leverage the opportunity that China presents.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and through you to, first, Mr. Dermarkar.

The issue of Fukushima was raised. I'm just wondering whether or not you could also share with the committee what Tyne technologies has done with the passive autocatalytic recombiner?

[Fred Dermarkar]

I'm sorry, I know technologically what the passive autocatalytic recombiners are, but I'm not really sure what Tyne technologies has done with them.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

That was another spinoff from AECL, and perhaps Ms. Ing can elaborate on that.

First, Ms. Ing, with the national shipbuilding strategy, we're putting billions of dollars into that, and you mentioned there are different applications for nuclear technology. We all know about medicine, energy, and non-proliferation. You also mentioned welds, and there's certainly an awful lot of welding going on in shipbuilding. Are you aware of any opportunities for the nuclear industry in terms of this huge investment into our navy?

[Lianne Ing]

There are a number of companies that specialize in neutron radiography techniques, which is what's used in the aerospace industry to inspect things like metallic castings and welds. I'm not sure whether they've been applied to the shipbuilding industry previously. Certainly those techniques provide a very high level of inspection and imagery that will identify any particular defects. Clearly, in the aerospace industry, those types of defects can be fatal immediately, so there's a very high-quality standard that's imposed upon the aerospace industry.

A number of groups that have grown up in Canada specialize in neutron radiography, and they might be able to provide some insight into whether their techniques can be applied to shipbuilding techniques.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In terms of tracing nuclear material, not just detecting it, are you familiar with any technology that has been developed on that front?

[Lianne Ing]

In terms of tracking the movement of material, yes, there's a number of techniques. There are active tracking techniques, where people will attach radiation detection devices typically connected to secure wireless networks that will allow you to trace a shipment of material and ensure that the full quantity of material moves from point A to point B without anything going missing.

There are also different techniques involved in what's called nuclear forensics. Even after nuclear material has been removed, for example, it can leave behind non-radioactive indicators that this material was previously present. In other words, the ionizing radiation can change some of the material properties in the environment, even after the material has left the area. There are some techniques being developed now that can detect those small changes and thereby trace the path of nuclear material.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

When I asked about Tyne engineering and the passive autocatalytic recombiner, you were nodding your head. As it applies to a circumstance like Fukushima, would you explain to the committee what it's about?

[Lianne Ing]

I'm probably not in a great position to explain in detail what Tyne has been doing in that area. They are another spinoff company that came out of AECL. They've been able to carve out a niche capability where they're providing those sorts of technologies to the industry. I wouldn't attempt to explain in detail how it works.

Fred, would you like to...?

[Fred Dermarkar]

Sure.

Again, I can talk about the technology but not so much about the company itself. The technology was developed at Chalk River, Canadian Nuclear Labs, originally. In a nuclear plant, when you have a severe accident and metal temperatures get above a certain level, you can have a reaction between zirconium and water that results in the dissociation of hydrogen from oxygen. You end up building hydrogen in the containment atmosphere. That's exactly what happened at Fukushima. The explosions that you saw were hydrogen explosions. They were not nuclear explosions. They were hydrogen explosions that were from the dissociation of water in the reactor.

What a passive autocatalytic recombiner does is it allows the hydrogen and oxygen to recombine at a lower threshold. There's a catalyst that allows the hydrogen and oxygen to recombine so that they're doing so at a concentration that is well below the flammability concentration for hydrogen. It takes the hydrogen out of the air before the hydrogen gets to the point where it becomes explosive. We are implementing those around the world, actually.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you.

That takes us to the end of our time. Thank you very much, both of you, for joining us this morning. We appreciate it, and it's very helpful to us.

The meeting is adjourned.