Evidence of meeting #2 for Natural Resources in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nafta.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve Verheul  Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Colin Barker  Director, Softwood Lumber Division, Global Affairs Canada
Jeff Labonté  Assistant Deputy Minister, Major Projects Management Office, Department of Natural Resources
Zachary Archambault  Deputy Director, Tariff and Goods Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Major Projects Management Office, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

I think the proportionality clause is one of the clauses in the existing NAFTA, and one that's been around for quite some time, with different interpretations from different perspectives. There's a perspective that would suggest that it ties Canada's hand in some way, shape or form by having that particular clause, and that it prevents us from being able to sell energy goods to other countries, if you will, under certain circumstances.

In fact, I think the clause was drafted originally as something that the United States was seeking and Canada provided in the original negotiations. The clause allowed and provided that we would sell it at market rates. The loss to Canada, if that clause were ever to be used, would have been the ability to sell something at a market rate to a particular partner that we had to sell it to at a certain proportion. It was already constructed in a way that was market-based, which means that the risk, if you will, to Canadian producers and Canadian energy companies was that they would have a market to sell their goods at a market rate. They just had to have a particular dance partner, if you will, should that clause ever be put in place.

From Canada's perspective, removing it means that's no longer the case. Of course, we sell our energy goods at market rates, and our ability to move those goods to other parts of the world.... In other parts of the world, demand and interest in Canadian energy goods are rising as different supply-and-demand dynamics around the world change. As cleaner energy and lower-emission energy become part of that supply mix, and the push to meet those commitments is made around the world, Canada's energy products have different opportunities to fare better, based on some of the circumstances under which we produce our goods and the fact that we have very rigorous environmental regimes that document, monitor and account for our ability to produce goods and to be able to present that data in very transparent ways.

As the world moves in that direction, if you can imagine that we don't have the proportionality clause but we have an ability to move more goods to as many places as we like, the market will still demand and drive what the returns in revenues will be for those products. The cost of transporting those goods is also factored into the returns that come. If you can move it somewhere closer to home, it's generally a little less expensive to do that. The infrastructure enables us to move it, by and large, to different places. With some of the things that are under way within the industry, we're seeing movement of the goods in different directions. We actually take in some of the U.S. energy now, more than we used to before, because it's actually less expensive for Canadians to consume that energy and it allows us to export more goods from other parts of the country to the United States.

We have a very integrated relationship. One of the key things on the energy side of the equation is to maintain the integration between the energy systems. It benefits both nations, because we're able to trade those goods where it's most cost-effective for particular regions, but it also creates a degree of resilience, particularly in the electricity transmission sector. When renewables are coming online in different parts of the country, the hydro load and ability to produce energy from hydro sources that are much more prevalent in Canada than in the United States provide a bit more base to the United States grid. By the same token, at certain points in the year Canada needs more electricity energy and the United States fills the void. There's a lot of integration between the two countries.

We've maintained that in the agreement. That was one of the objectives of the team, recognizing the sheer volume of the amount of energy being traded. It is one of the largest commodities in our trade circumstances and a place where Canada has a lot to offer the world. Again, that's something that was part of the agreement. The agreement has less ties, if you will, to our ability to move it around, so we have a much more flexible and broad ability to do that.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you.

Mr. Simard, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes. Then we will go to Mr. Cannings.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

Mr. Verheul, I am sure that you are going to forgive me for being fixated on aluminum, but I want to go back to it.

When the first agreement, NAFTA, was signed, we know that Canada, because of Quebec, was one of the world's leading producers of aluminum. Now, we produce almost nothing in comparison with what China is doing. Market access is therefore essential for the aluminum industry. Something we do not understand seems to have slipped into the agreement: the privileged status given to steel, but not to aluminum.

On that subject, when the agreement says that 70% of parts have to be produced in North America, we forget steel parts have to be smelted and poured in North America, which is not the case for aluminum parts. The most telling statistic on the matter comes from the market itself. From May to July 2019, exports of aluminum wheels from China fell by 60%. At the same time, those from Mexico increased by 240%. Today, they are apparently hovering around 260%. The big problem is that Mexico doesn't produce aluminum. As we are well aware, they get it from China.

If we are not able to plug that entry point for Chinese aluminum, the aluminum industry in Quebec is pretty much bound to disappear or to lose essential market shares. Could you clarify that? As you understand it, is the status of aluminum in the agreement similar to the status of steel?

4:25 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

There is certainly a difference between the treatment of steel and aluminum.

There is one difference between the treatment of the two, and that came about as a result of the agreement to the protocol on December 10. As you know, at that point there was a requirement introduced that steel would have to be melted and poured within North America in order to qualify for this 70% provision as it relates to purchases by auto manufacturers.

No such requirement exists for aluminum, that it be smelted and poured in North America. We did propose that, but didn't successfully achieve it. As I indicated earlier, this is not something that we consider to be a closed issue. We are going to be monitoring closely imports of aluminum, and we're very much aware of the situation you described with respect to China. We will be looking to build the case that we need to have the same treatment in aluminum as we have on steel, if we do see that the trend continues with respect to imports from other countries.

There are several measures in place against imports from China of both steel and aluminum, for anti-dumping reasons. There are broader discussions going on with respect to China's overproduction and overcapacity of these products. With respect to this issue, there are also discussions happening internationally.

We are approaching this issue from a number of different directions, but overall, there is a greater incentive in this agreement than existed in NAFTA for aluminum to be used in the production of cars.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

Do I have time to ask a quick question?

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

You were actually about a minute and a half over already.

Mr. Cannings

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

I was going to ask a question about wine, but I guess it's out of the purview of this committee, and it's more of a WTO question. Maybe I'll try to get that to you offline, after we adjourn.

I'll go back to softwood lumber. Since the softwood lumber dispute, as you mentioned, it really isn't covered in this agreement, since it's more about U.S. claims of countervailing and anti-dumping tariffs. Is the end game of that going to be like it was before? After these various panels have had their say, we will then enter into negotiations around a new softwood lumber agreement, and that would be where we would hope to get some reparations of getting those monies back. Is that how it would work?

4:30 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

4:30 p.m.

Director, Softwood Lumber Division, Global Affairs Canada

Colin Barker

Certainly, you're right. In the past, that's how it worked. We have pursued litigation through NAFTA and the WTO. If we are successful in that litigation it increases our ability to negotiate a good agreement for our industry. That is certainly the approach we're pursuing this time. As I mentioned, it does take some time to get those wins under our belt to change the balance, if you will, and to encourage the U.S. industry to come back to the table to talk.

I hesitate to prognosticate because the past is not necessarily a prologue, especially these days, but certainly that is our current approach, and the Canadian side is ready and willing to negotiate. Of course, as Steve mentioned, we need a willing partner on the other side. Unfortunately, sometimes that just takes time before they are willing to do that.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

The result of these coming panels would just say that these countervailing duties or these anti-dumping duties were wrong. They wouldn't say that therefore the Americans must repay these duties. That would have to come in another agreement.

4:30 p.m.

Director, Softwood Lumber Division, Global Affairs Canada

Colin Barker

It is possible to pursue litigation to a conclusion, eventually, where perhaps there would be relief ordered, where duties would be ordered to be refunded. That takes a lot of time, so sometimes the decision is made that it's better to negotiate and get some certainty for business going forward than to simply keep litigating, because the U.S. can always simply relaunch a new investigation.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

To add to that though, Colin, it is certainly true that we have in the past on many occasions gone through that process, won cases and had duties returned. The NAFTA dispute settlement process for these types of issues is the only process we have that actually allows the return of those duties.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

All right, thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

We've completed two full rounds. My intention was that we would at this point stop, which would then give us an opportunity to give some thought to the evidence we've heard. We could then reflect and give some direction to our analysts for drafting purposes. We've been pretty efficient with the use of our time today.

I know, Ms. McLeod, you have.... Here's the dilemma. If there are one or two more questions somebody may have, that's one thing, but otherwise, out of respect for the process and respect for the other members, we're going to have to have an entirely new round, and I don't know that there's an appetite for that around the table.

Go ahead.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

This was on our agenda from 3:30 to 5:30. I recognize that we need to give some drafting instructions. I didn't anticipate that it would take very long.

Certainly, from our perspective I would love to have another opportunity to ask questions. If it's a whole round, if other people do...or otherwise, I don't know what the wishes of my colleagues are, but certainly it's in our schedule. We don't have a chance to delve into this all that frequently and I think it's important to keep going.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I don't disagree with the sentiment.

What do others have to say?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Yvonne Jones Liberal Labrador, NL

I think it's fair to say that all members have opportunities that are interchangeable at committees. At the trade committee this is one of the agreements that has been discussed extensively. After our other questions, I'm sure there will be many other opportunities, including in the House of Commons.

I certainly feel that the task we were requested to do as a committee by the trade committee has been completed today, and I really believe that we were able to address the recommendations that they asked us to look at.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Okay, everything takes longer. The drafting instructions may take longer, and we have to be out of here by 5:30.

Let me ask a question. You've expressed an interest in asking more questions. I'm not extending an invitation to do so only because there's an opportunity.

Does anybody else have any burning questions?

Ms. McLeod, you have a couple of questions. Maybe we can indulge that and then move on.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Yvonne Jones Liberal Labrador, NL

Do it now.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I'd like an answer to my other question before I agree to that.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I'd like to ask questions, for sure.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Then Ms. McLeod will ask a few questions.

Is everybody agreeable to that?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

That's fine with me.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Yvonne Jones Liberal Labrador, NL

I would suggest an extra 10 minutes, if that's sufficient.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Here's what I'm going to suggest. Why don't we give Ms. McLeod five minutes and, at the end of that five minutes, if that gives rise to any other questions....

Mr. Simard, do you have a question?