Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 27th, 2024

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We had a problem. Mr. Jackson Wijaya refused to testify before our committee. That's unprecedented, when someone just says, “No, I don't care what you think.” However, he's controlling 22 million hectares of forest. You're probably smarter at math than I am, but that's bigger than the size of Nova Scotia.

When Nova Scotia's former premier, Stephen McNeil, went to meet with Mr. Wijaya, he went to Shanghai, to the Sinar Mas building. We've been told that Mr. Wijaya's office is in the headquarters of APP, at the White Magnolia Plaza, which is also known as Sinar Mas Plaza, in Shanghai.

Could you tell us where Mr. Wijaya is?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I don't know Mr. Wijaya, and I don't know where his office is, so—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

He's the man who is in control of 22 million hectares of forests.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

—I would have a hard time giving you a sense of that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm just concerned because—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus, I want to pause once again. As a reminder, if we could tie it to the supplementary estimates.... You do have a significant amount of latitude to work within. Since the minister is here on the supplementary estimates, you're free to use your questioning as you wish, but you need to tie it back to the conversation at hand today. I'm sure you can find a way to do all of that.

Thank you.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Absolutely. I know it is uncomfortable that we gave 22 million hectares of Canadian forest to a company with such a track record and we're going to have to plant two billion trees to cover all the damage, but I just want to follow up.

Mac Anderson, who worked at Mackenzie Fibre, testified to the B.C. legislature that Paper Excellence was owned by Sinar Mas, which your government denied. Then he said, “Guys in Shanghai were reviewing what I was doing.”

If this is a Canadian company in the Canadian interest that is operating and looking after our Canadian forests, are you concerned at all or are you looking into the fact that our forests are being directed by the guys in Shanghai?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I just feel like we keep on going to the same point, and I still haven't received an answer about how this ties to the supplementary estimates (B).

I know that Mr. Angus has brought a motion to have Mr. Wijaya come, so that may present an opportunity for us to get a lot of these answers, but this doesn't tie to the supplementary estimates (B) as far as I can tell. We've tried a few times to ask for even just a slight hook into them, so perhaps if Mr. Angus can help with that, it would be helpful.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I absolutely would love to have the Paper Excellence study, but my Liberal colleagues are filibustering it, so we can't ask these questions. The only chance I might get is this.

Is the minister in charge of Canada's forests?

I'm concerned that this is being controlled from Shanghai. I know the workers are concerned. We have some great mills that we want to protect and we want investment in.

I'll just ask a simple question.

Is your department concerned that decisions about Canadian forests are being directed out of Shanghai?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Again, the Investment Canada Act review, which looks at—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I still haven't gotten that slight hook into the supplementary estimates (B). It's pretty light.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The truth hurts. I'm respectful. She can interrupt me all she wants, but—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It's not about truth—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin, for your point of order.

Mr. Angus, I'm going to turn it back over to you. You're an experienced parliamentarian. You have 15 seconds or so. I'm going to let you ask your question and let Mr.—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

It's the only question I've wanted to ask.

Are you and is your department concerned about whether or not our forests are being controlled out of Shanghai? It's a simple question.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As I say, the review of foreign investment goes through the Investment Canada Act, and the requirement to ensure all of the obligations and the commitments through that process, once one is approved, rests with the Minister of Industry.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I get that, but I asked if you are concerned.

Are you concerned?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I would suggest that you actually invite him to have that conversation, and I would also suggest that you have a conversation with one of your friends, Doug Ford, who is actually responsible for the management of the forests.

If you know anything about the constitutional jurisdiction here, Charlie, the provinces actually manage the forests—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm glad you're bringing up Doug Ford, but I wanted to know if you were concerned. I'll call Doug and I'll check in and see what he has to say, but I was hoping that you were concerned.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Minister Wilkinson. Thank you, Mr. Angus, for your questioning.

Unfortunately, we have to move to the next round of questioning.

Now we'll go to Mrs. Stubbs for five minutes.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

Just to finish off where we were, Minister, 13,000 indigenous people work in jobs in the energy sector. As you know, indigenous people make up about 4% of the national work force but 8% of the energy sector. Indigenous people make three times more in the oil and gas sector than they do in other sectors. Indigenous women in particular make very much more than others in other sectors. There is lower unemployment among indigenous people in the oil and gas sector than in the rest of the economy.

Knowing that the oil and gas cap will kill hundreds of thousands of Canadian oil and gas jobs—every expert says so—I just wonder how you can possibly justify bringing through policies that will kill the jobs, the livelihoods and the future aspirations of those people you always say you care about most.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Mrs. Stubbs, that's just factually untrue. In fact, with the way in which the oil and gas cap is defined, we expect to see a 16% increase in production, not a decrease in production, and an increase in employment, not a decrease in employment.

We've brought forward mechanisms like the indigenous loan guarantee program, which is sector agnostic, to ensure that indigenous people can participate not just as workers in the sector, but as owners in the sector. That is absolutely a fundamental part of what we are working to do.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Minister, your claims that it will create jobs and increase production make absolutely no sense. After nine years, your government has left Canada completely landlocked and dependent on one customer, the United States, which is now our biggest competitor.

Within five years, Canada will be completely out of pipeline capacity. Therefore, production will be cut. Therefore, oil and gas workers will lose jobs. Therefore, a priority group among them, which will be hurt the most, will be indigenous workers in oil and gas. It is deeply alarming that Canada's natural resources minister seems to have no clue about that.

I guess, then, you don't really care that Dale Swampy from the National Coalition of Chiefs says, “If the federal government continues on its path with a 'just transition'”—with Bill C-50, which you know will kill 170,000 oil and gas jobs immediately because your own memos told you so—“an emissions cap”—which is a productions cap—“and other crippling legislation [it will cause] an energy crisis that will have catastrophic effects on our people, especially those living on reserves across this country.”

Shame on you.

Let's talk about LNG, because, of course, you and your government seem to be the only people in the world who think there's no business case for Canadian LNG.

How many countries, Minister, have asked for LNG from Canada?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

First of all, I would say that it's the height of hypocrisy—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

How many countries have asked for LNG from Canada?