Natural Resources Committee on May 30th, 2022

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to turn to Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much again to the witnesses.

I have a few more follow-up questions for President Lehr.

You just commented on the way that many of these companies have left a massive number of abandoned orphaned wells, creating a tremendous responsibility for the communities. This is something that Albertans are seized with. There's a massive deficit in terms of what's left to clean up. Our own Parliamentary Budget Officer projects that over $1 billion is the price tag to clean this up by 2025. It's massive.

President Lehr, you said you're involved in some of this reclamation, but with just $15 million. Who, in fact, is going to pay for this?

[Herb Lehr]

That's a great question, Blake. We don't know. We've had oil companies go bankrupt. We have a great number of different providers. The biggest provider in our communities of course is Canadian Natural Resources, which has posted record profits, but they don't even pay their industrial tax to us. They contest everything that we do when we try to hold them accountable.

I look in our community. Again, I talked about Google Earth. Go look at the number of wells and the impact there. A lot of the old infrastructure still sits there. Land is just wasting away. It hurts our hearts.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thanks so much for that, President Lehr.

Now, when it comes to these companies not paying their taxes, I know that you have actually accessed the courts in order to try to get them to enforce, on behalf of these communities, that these companies pay their basic fair share. How successful were the indigenous communities in that application?

[Herb Lehr]

They actually lost on a technicality. They won when it came to being able to use budget-based bylaws and taxation. We will be able to hold them accountable in the future.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thanks so much, President Lehr.

I do believe this is my final few seconds. I just want to thank all of the witnesses.

Again, we hope that we can find ways to create a better fair share for your communities, President Lehr.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're now going to move now to Mr. Bragdon, who will have five minutes for his round of questioning.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I believe it's going to actually be Mr. Maguire.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Then we'll go over to Mr. Maguire.

The clock's yours for five minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you.

I thank all of the witnesses for their presentations today as well.

I would like to go to Chief Gale for just a moment.

I was very pleased to see that you have 85 partner nations and that you're into a lot of clean projects and very much in favour of partnering. You are part of the Coastal GasLink equity transitions and others, it appears.

I wonder if you could just expound on the benefits of being involved in those and if you could indicate others that you may have been involved in.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

Thank you.

When I look at all of the things that are happening around the country right now, including LNG, geothermal, biomass, battery storage, I see indigenous people leading this transition. We're the biggest owners of these renewable projects, other than municipalities and governments. I want to see our people doing more of it. When these projects are done right, it's a way to alleviate the poverty of our communities and to address the legacy of colonization.

Our people have been seeing these projects being built but the benefits have not been going to our people for over 100 years. We want to find a new way to be involved in these projects. Going forward, I think that any kind of resource project in Canada will require indigenous knowledge, indigenous involvement and social licence. When I say I don't want to create any anxiety or fear, I just think it's a chance to create inclusion and recovery. That's what we're promoting as members of the coalition.

The one reason I love economic development is that it's not a zero-sum game. My success and my community's success don't have to trump your success. In the coalition, we're not project specific, as I said. We don't pick the projects. It's the members who come together. We had about 16 of our members come together to form a coalition to get equity for the Coastal GasLink pipeline. It took a long time. They ended up being successful with 10% equity in that pipeline. That pipeline's going to be running for 30 to 50 years. That's great own-source revenue for those first nations communities to build their schools or health centres, and to provide jobs for their people—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

If I can just interrupt you there for a second, thank you. That's great. I hate to interrupt you, because it's good to hear the success story there.

I was also impressed with your comments about how people don't understand you, that people have to come to you first with plans, that you need to be in the consultations, which we heard didn't happen in some of these areas. I think that's a must.

I know Mr. Wapass indicated that it was an unjust transition. I think we need to look at the comment, too, by Mr. Wapass, that if the emissions cap is poorly implemented it could lead to a cap on production, which would be really hurtful to our first nations. That's what he said. I'm just wondering if you could expand on his comment and how you see that happening. We certainly are not talking about a cap on production, but I sympathize with his view.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

I would like to get a little bit deeper than caps on production. I think our nation has historically faced the barriers that other first nations also face in participating in their resource development due to the lack of capital. I don't think that any government policy should ever affect any indigenous right to move forward on a project. We need to look at some of the barriers that are not allowing first nations to move forward.

We were stripped of our wealth. It makes it hard for us to provide equity and to be partners and to reduce the risk and the costs because we can't borrow money. If the bottleneck for first nations to get involved in any project they want to participate in is access to capital, we need to overcome that.

I think the solution is to change the financing system in Canada, with indigenous people leading this transition. Indigenous people are going to decide when and where they want to be involved in a project. If we don't have access to money, then nobody's going to be able to have access to anything. We need to look at that by doing good business and being a good society.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you. I think I have one.

Mr. Swampy indicated in previous testimony that if you put a cap on production, you won't be able to produce or export LNG, which so many first nations are involved in and counting on. It is a big benefit to them.

You and Mr. Swampy, I think it would be a good thing to continue to export our energy, but if we decrease Canadian energy exports, would you predict that other countries with lower environmental standards would just step in if we don't do it, which could raise global emissions, which is exactly what we don't want? Could you just comment on that, and Mr. Swampy as well?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You're going to have to be really brief. We're at the end of this one. I'm trying to get into one more round of two and a half minutes for all members. I have one five-minute round left.

I'll go to Chief Gale and then Mr. Swampy, but keep it nice and tight, please.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

Yes, I think you nailed it right there that Canada has the highest standards for environmental leadership when it comes to developing projects. I think we can make that better by allowing first nations to be a part of that through equity, and also including our traditional knowledge with the scientific knowledge. Our people see the changes on the ground faster than you can collect data.

I'm telling you that because I'm a land user and I can see the change when we had oil and gas in our territory. You can't deny that a lake is becoming a two-island lake and a three-island lake when you're seeing all of the vegetation being taken away for fracking.

Traditional knowledge needs to be involved too, and I think the more you involve indigenous people, the faster we will get to building projects and a cleaner environment.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Sorry, Mr. Swampy, I'm not going to be able to give you the time here, but somebody else may be able to pick that up. I do need to go to my next person.

We're going to jump to Ms. Jones, who will have five minutes for her round of questioning.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I would like to thank all of the panellists for their presentations today and for their very helpful answers to some difficult questions, I'm sure.

First of all, regarding the discussion on orphan wells, I want to say to Mr. Saddleback, thank you for at least mentioning that those investments have been able to create indigenous jobs in western Canada and have certainly helped the environment.

I know what the PBO has said. Even though they estimated it at $361 million, they projected it to go to $1.1 billion by 2025. However, let's not ignore the fact that industry itself has very minimal security deposits on any of this cleanup and that this has been a program implemented by the government since 2020, which has invested $1.7 million into this particular project. I really think that in energy transition, we also need to look at when companies transition out of the industry and what they leave behind.

I'd be interested in hearing the feedback of people on the panel about that as well.

I'm going to ask a second question as well, and hopefully they'll have an opportunity to answer both.

I know that, especially with the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, you have partnerships in LNG, and you've talked several times about having equity to invest and how that contributes to indigenous jobs. I'd like to hear where you head is in terms of that space and what the government should be doing.

Also, Mr. Swampy, you talked about UNDRIP, which I support, though I'm not sure if you support it or if your interpretation of UNDRIP is different from my understanding of it. UNDRIP will have a tremendous impact in helping and aiding indigenous people going forward in resource development in Canada. I'm not seeing your optimism on that and I'd like to get more clarification.

So, I have three questions. One is a general question, one is to Ms. Gale, and one is to Mr. Swampy. You can start with the last and go backwards if you want, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay.

Mr. Swampy, we'll start with you, and then we will go to Chief Gale and then to general comments to the first question.

[Dale Swampy]

We advised our chiefs and wrote a letter to the Prime Minister, who was nice enough to write back acknowledging our concerns and issues regarding UNDRIP.

We feel that it's an ambiguous law, and whether or not it is going to be upheld will depend on the government in power. We believe it's so ambiguous that it's going to give the legal industry a large swath to sue the federal government and industries and rest of Canadians for their taxpayer dollars. That's an industry that's going to balloon like you wouldn't believe. The indigenous law industry right now is horrendous—it's huge. There are thousands and thousands of lawyers out there waiting for an opportunity to be able to sign on a first nation to sue the federal government, and your UNDRIP is going to allow them to do that.

I disagree with the idea that Canada has the lowest deposits by the oil and gas industry for environmental protection. Canada has the best industry in the world and I'm proud of the industry that we have in Canada. We have 14,000 self-identified indigenous workers working in that industry in Alberta alone.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I didn't say it was the lowest; I said it was minimal. Their deposits were minimal, according to the PBO report.

We can move now to my next question. That was for the First Nations Major Projects Coalition.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

Was that with regard to jobs?

Thank you.

When first nations are getting involved in equity positions, along come the jobs. I worked at a gas plant for over 20 years and right now I see a crisis with the baby boomers retiring and the need for us to ensure we have opportunities for youth in the trades, in post-secondary and university. We're partnering with local universities, colleges and the Construction Foundation of BC,. We're getting our people out there to get ready for this renewable transition. A lot of the jobs that our members are currently working at in oil and gas are transferable.

The other main thing the coalition is looking at and helping our members with is procurement. The procurement of these projects is another opportunity for people to be meaningfully involved.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of that one.

I'm going to take a little bit of liberty with the times. We have ten minutes left if we want to have the discussion that Mr. Angus and Mr. Simard asked to have at the beginning of the meeting.

With the 10 minutes, I'm going to do two and a half minutes for each group. We're going to have to be pretty tight with that. At the end of the two and a half minutes I'm going to jump in so we can wind it up within 10 minutes.

Mr. Bragdon, you're up first. I'll give you two and a half minutes on the clock.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to each of the witnesses today. It's been very insightful for all of us. I appreciate your insights and hearing this information. I truly hope more Canadians have access to your perspective and that your very important perspective is heard during times like this.

The opportunity before Canada right now is incredible. We have amazing potential as a country in the face of what's happening geopolitically with all the instability around energy, food and resource supply around the world. Canada can be looked to as a safe haven and could be very much a reliable partner for a world that's desperate for reliable sources of energy and food under some of the best environmentally regulated circumstances. Our indigenous people play such an important role in that and add such credibility to our sector.

Hearing the testimony from you today is extremely powerful. I think more Canadians need to hear that because we have a great news story.

I'd like to turn it to Mr. Swampy, Ms. Gale and Mr. Saddleback to give a brief remark each on your thoughts about how there's real potential left in our resource and energy sector that we just need to tell the story of and promote, rather than try to move away from it.

I'll start with you, Mr. Swampy.

[Dale Swampy]

As I said before, we've been steeped in the oil and gas industry on our first nation for the last 70 years, reaping some two billion dollars' worth of royalties from the Bonnie Glen deposit. We get all the impacts of both environmental damage and the work we have to do to partner with our partner companies in the oil industry.

We've seen the positive kind of resources that they apply towards environmental protection. We're happy to see the kind of cleanup they do and have done over the 2,500 wells around our area. We think they have the capacity, knowledge and capability to transition us properly into the green energy environments.

Thanks.