Natural Resources Committee on May 30th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

With regrets, we're out of time on that one. I need to go over to Mr. Sorbara to keep it moving and make sure everybody gets their last two and a half minutes in.

For anyone participating today, if there are things you want to expand on from the questions you've heard, we do welcome up to a 10-page written brief in addition to the testimony we've had today. I know it's asking a lot, but if you have time or additional thoughts, you can send that in through the clerk.

With that, Mr. Sorbara, we'll go to you for two and a half minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I wasn't expecting to have a follow-up, but that's great.

Mr. Swampy, I've listened to your concerns and comments today. I also understand full well that the energy sector in Canada and the world needs more Canadian energy, whether it is renewable or non-renewable. I wrote about this several weeks ago in an op-ed. It's very important, in the context of the world we live in now, that energy comes from Canada. I truly believe that, from coast to coast to coast.

With that, how would you describe the opportunities that are currently available for young indigenous folks to enter the energy sector here in Canada?

[Dale Swampy]

I think the first and biggest opportunity is the blue hydrogen transition that we're seeing in Alberta, in both the north and south. Six big oil sands companies are applying a lot of their resources toward this, and we hope the government will be able to back them in this venture, including on carbon sequestration, and so forth. I think Alberta can be the leader in providing hydrogen.

In Europe, Germany just signed an agreement with Middle Eastern countries to buy 2,000 tonnes of hydrogen per day from them. The Chinese government has committed to 200,000 tonnes of hydrogen per day from the international market. Canada has to be on that precipice. It's first nations who want to get into the STEM programs and be a part of this. We need help from both industry and government to do that.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Swampy, for acknowledging the role that the energy sector has played and continues to play. If you look at the monthly trade statistics, last month, 30% of all money earned by this country came strictly from oil and gas sales. Those aren't my numbers; those are directly from Statistics Canada. The energy sector continues to be significant for our economy and the 800,000 to 900,000 Canadians who directly depend on the sector for their livelihoods.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Monsieur Simard, who will have his final two and a half minutes.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their enlightening remarks.

I will give my time to my colleague Mr. Morrice.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Simard.

I want to follow up with President Lehr.

I really appreciate some of the reflections you shared. In a conversation earlier, you spoke about compensation, in particular. We've heard other committee witnesses talk about iron and earth, for example, and a national upskilling initiative for the fossil fuel industry and indigenous workers to the tune of $10 billion over 10 years, in order to support a million workers. We've had the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives speak about a just transition benefit and a just transition transfer.

I'm wondering if you would be open to sharing more insights with this committee on what kind of compensation is required as we move through a truly just transition.

[Dale Swampy]

Sorry, who is the question for?

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

The question is for President Lehr.

[Herb Lehr]

Can I get a short version of the question again, please?

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Can you elaborate on what kind of compensation you feel is required to support indigenous workers in a just transition?

[Herb Lehr]

Thank you.

I look at it all carte blanche. I look at what's required to bring indigenous people up to parity with all other Canadians, so I'm not going to say there's any one set amount. I think you have to take a look at where people are, statistically, in terms of health, education and financial resources, and look at it as a benchmark to create equality across the road. I'm suggesting that part of this can come about through the saving of the human race, in my mind, by ensuring we have our trees.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time.

Finally, Mr. Angus, you have the last two and a half minutes today.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I have two quick questions.

The Alberta Federation of Labour says the transition is happening. Workers for the Canadian Labour Congress say we need a plan. The energy workers from iron and earth are saying their members are ready and they want to move forward on the transition. When I listen to my Liberal and Conservative committee colleagues, I often think I'm at the just transition denialism study.

Chief Gale, among your members, are you seeing that an economic transition is under way and that we need to be ready for it?

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

I believe that indigenous partners and communities are the key partners in making sure we meet our net-zero goals by 2050. If we're left behind, it's not going to happen.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Absolutely.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

We definitely want to be part of the solution. We are very innovative and resilient, and we have the expertise in our communities. I feel this is a huge opportunity for this country, and if we want to address climate change meaningfully, we have to ensure indigenous rights and benefits are finally at the forefront of any new development, and—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Wonderful. I'm running out of time. Could you send us some recommendations that we can look at, because I think that voice is really important? That would be very helpful.

[Chief Sharleen Gale]

Absolutely.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Swampy, I just want to close on that, because I think this issue of indigenous rights is fundamental. I'm listening to you talking with the Conservatives, saying that UNDRIP and the climate targets can't be moved ahead without indigenous consent. You're on the record speaking out against UNDRIP in numerous publications because it would slow down oil and gas projects. How is it okay to say we shouldn't have indigenous consent that would slow down oil and gas projects, but now you need indigenous consent from groups who want to expand oil and gas? Don't you think that's a strange contradiction?

[Dale Swampy]

We already have consent with the ESG guidelines. I don't believe UNDRIP is going to give us more power than we already have.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Then why did you speak out against it?

[Dale Swampy]

If we had ESG guidelines in the 1970s, we wouldn't have the environmental problems we have today. The first nations are being charged with the development of the natural resources. UNDRIP is—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But you said this was the best industry. Why do we have environmental problems with that great industry. Shouldn't they have handled this?