Natural Resources Committee on Sept. 22nd, 2022

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

On a point of order—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Are you challenging the chair, Mr. McLean? I'm asking right now: Is there a challenge to the chair?

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I'm actually talking about—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

This is obstruction. Challenge the chair or stop interfering with the witnesses.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Challenge the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We can vote on it, or we're moving forward. That's where we're at.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Point of order. Point of order—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

No more points of order; I'm not accepting your point of order. You're going around in circles.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Chair, that's because you're not hearing what the procedure is. I respectfully ask you, after I say what I have to say here—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Respectfully, can you mute this so we can hear our witnesses? That's who we came here to hear, not Mr. McLean. Please mute him.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Look, again we have talking over going on here, but I do have a point of order on the table that I would like to address, Mr. Chair. If you can hear the point of order, then perhaps we can progress in this matter.

If I can say this without being interrupted this time, I would really appreciate it. The procedure we have to go through here, of course, is to put on notice the work order here. We've done that.

The next procedure we have to go through in raising a point of privilege in the House of Commons is to raise that here and discuss it here with this chair. This is the procedure that we have to go through because, in our opinion, you have breached a point of privilege in this committee. We were going through that step here, and the first step of that, of course, Mr. Chair, is for you to hear what the point of privilege is. That's what Mr. Bragdon has put on the table here: a point of privilege that I think is, according to parliamentary procedure in Bosc and Gagnon, incumbent upon you to entertain at this time.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Chair, you have ruled. You have ruled.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Chair, when are you going to—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. McLean, I have ruled, and I have said this is not a point of privilege.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You have ruled. This is disrespect of the chair and disrespect of our witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm going to put it now. I'm being challenged. I'm obviously being challenged. I'm going to put it to a vote now.

Does the decision of the chair stand? That is that this is not a point of privilege and that we're moving on to hearing the witnesses.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

You haven't heard the point of privilege, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes I have. I have heard enough to make a decision, and I've made the decision that this is not a point of privilege.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

What is the point of privilege?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm calling the question now. Does the decision of the chair stand? All in favour?

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Let's ask: Have you heard the point of privilege that's been raised?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes, I have heard the point of privilege.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

What is the point of privilege? Could you clarify, because we have to take—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

The Conservatives feel that they have been disproportionately treated in the number of witnesses heard.

The vote has been called. Shall the ruling of the chair be sustained?

(Ruling of the chair sustained)

We are now moving forward to our witnesses. I will move to Ms. Smith.

I'm going to turn to you for your five-minute opening statement. Thank you.

[Samantha Smith, Director, Just Transition Centre, International Trade Union Confederation]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you very much for the invitation to appear before the standing committee.

My name is Sam Smith. I work for the International Trade Union Confederation. We represent more than 200,000,000 organized workers in 162 countries. In Canada, our affiliate is the Canadian Labour Congress. I'm the director of the Just Transition Centre at the ITUC, which was set up in 2016 in the aftermath of the Paris Agreement and the negotiation of just transition guidelines in the United Nations to help unions and their members as well as governments and sometimes even employers to get good plans for a just transition so it does what it says on the tin.

I want to address two points in the opening statement. The first is on the international structures and rules for just transition and a bit of what's happening in countries other than Canada. Second, I have some practical observations after six years of working on just transition, mostly in the energy sector, with unions in countries around the world.

The first thing is that we have international rules for just transition that have been negotiated in the United Nations in the International Labour Organization, of which, of course, Canada is a prominent member state. Those rules are pretty clear about the processes for just transition, and there are two.

One is that you have to have social dialogue, which is negotiations between workers and our representatives and employers. Collective bargaining would be a part of social dialogue. Sometimes governments are a party to social dialogue.

Then the other is this broad multistakeholder process. I know you have heard testimony about the Scottish government's process, for example, on just transition. That is a broad multistakeholder process designed to bring people together and to get a consensus from which governments can build policy.

There are, then, two different processes with some different participants. They are both equally important, but there is one that is specifically related to unions, to employers and to governments, and that is social dialogue.

The other thing about just transition is that there are some outcomes we're trying to achieve. Those are also in international rules. One is to have decent work, meaning good jobs and making sure that the people who have good jobs today, for example, in the energy sector, also have good jobs in the future, and that where new jobs are being created in new sectors—let's say hydrogen, or carbon capture and storage, or electrification of transport—those new jobs are good ones.

The other part is social protection. That would be things like expanding EI. It would be things like making sure that people have education, that they have health care and that they have secure pensions, because in times of uncertainty, when jobs and sectors are changing, that part of just transition becomes even more important.

Just transition also has these other objectives, and these are seen through the lens of the world of work. Just transition is about poverty eradication and about bringing more people into the benefits of well-paid union jobs with rights.

Those are the international rules. That's also what we're seeing now in countries around the world, including now in the United States.

For the other part of my opening remarks, I thought it might be useful to share some of the experiences we have had. We work with unions around the world in some of the sectors that are experiencing the most change, such as the energy sector. We work with unions in oil and gas, in coal mining and in other forms of mining, and in the power sector. We work in everything from coal mining to nuclear to renewables; in auto, transport, construction and heavy industry, for example; and in steel and cement.

The first observation is that not one of us likes to be told we're going to lose our job, but the second is that when people see good jobs on the table, they see that path forward for themselves. They see a plan; they see investments; they see that they and their families are going to be okay, and their views about just transition and about the energy transition change.

This is a process that works. It works in different countries and in different sectors, and we would love to see federal legislation in Canada that also reflects these principles.

Thank you very much.