Evidence of meeting #6 for Natural Resources in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cap.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark A. Scholz  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Energy Contractors
Tim McMillan  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
Caroline Brouillette  National Policy Manager, Climate Action Network Canada
Tristan Goodman  President and Chief Executive Officer, Explorers and Producers Association of Canada
Susannah Pierce  President and Country Chair, Shell Canada Limited
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Hilary Jane Powell

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number six of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is continuing its study of a greenhouse gas emissions cap for the oil and gas sector. Today is our second day of eight meetings with witnesses for this study.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room or remotely using the Zoom application. Please note that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants that—

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, at the beginning of every meeting when you read this, it takes about 10 minutes out of our time whereas we could be turning to questions.

Could you email us this? We are aware of the rules and regulations, but when you read it, it's really taking a lot of time out of our hearings and my colleagues may not get a round of questions.

Is it possible just to email this to us at the beginning of every meeting?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I will work with the clerk to figure out how we can streamline the start of it. I will go through the pieces that are relevant to the witnesses, if that's okay, because that will be new information for them.

No photos or screenshots are allowed.

Today's proceedings will be televised and made available via the House of Commons website.

Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French. Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice.

For the witnesses who are joining us, I will ask you to speak in a normal fashion. We had a bit of an issue earlier today in that we had the MPs and the witnesses talking over each other, which makes it impossible for the interpreters to do their job, so we ask that only one person speak at a time. Also, to allow the interpreters to do their job, don't speak too quickly either. When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

With that, if everybody's okay with it, we will move into the hearing.

I would like to welcome our panel of witnesses today. We have from the Canadian Association of Energy Contractors, Mark Scholz, president and chief executive officer; from the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, Tim McMillan, president and chief executive officer; from Climate Action Network Canada, Caroline Brouillette, national policy manager; from the Explorers and Producers Association of Canada, Tristan Goodman, president and chief executive officer; and from Shell Canada, Susannah Pierce, president and country chair.

Welcome to each of our panellists.

We're going to give you each five minutes for opening statements. I use a card system, so watch for the yellow card, which indicates that 30 seconds is left. When we get to the red card, your time is up. I'm trying to adopt a new system that Ms. Goodridge has given me, but I'm not quite there for today, so we will go with the cards for one more meeting, and then we will see how it goes with a new system for timekeeping.

With that as an introduction, I'm going to go to Mr. Scholz for his opening comments.

If you're ready, you're good to go. I will give you five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Mark A. Scholz President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Energy Contractors

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee.

The issue of an emissions cap on the oil and gas sector is a very important one for our country. Our association represents Canadian energy service companies operating close to the wellhead. Our member companies employ tens of thousands of energy workers in the oil and gas industry and in emerging sectors such as hydrogen, helium, geothermal, LNG, lithium and carbon capture utilization and storage.

Canada's energy contractors recognize that governments and industry leaders from across the country and around the world have issued a challenge to make energy development cleaner and even more sustainable to meet ambitious climate targets. It is our belief that, through partnership and collaboration with the Canadian oil and gas industry, meeting Canada's climate goals are achievable. Industry supports the Government of Canada's goal to significantly reduce the GHG emissions profile of our sector, but we strongly assert that the drive for net zero must not effectively become a cap on oil and natural gas production in Canada.

Canada's energy industry is a willing partner in helping Canada reduce GHGs and ultimately achieve net-zero emissions in our sector. We believe this energy transition is a technical challenge but also a great economic opportunity. The production of cleaner oil and gas, the development of alternative energy sources such as hydrogen and geothermal and the support for CCUS form a viable pathway to net zero, and it is one that supports Canadian energy workers, resource communities and our entire economy through the energy transition.

As we as a country discuss how to lower emissions in our oil and gas sector, we must have this conversation realistically and practically, and acknowledge some fundamental facts. The International Energy Agency continues to project a growing demand for oil and natural gas in the coming decades. In fact, during the IEA's recent launch of it's Canada 2022 report, the executive director emphasized that Canada is a cornerstone of global energy markets and should continue to be so. He stated, “We will still need oil and gas for years to come.... I prefer that oil is produced by countries...like Canada who want to reduce the emissions of oil and gas.”

With a record of over $3.5 billion invested since 2018 in technologies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, Canada's energy industry continues to be the largest investor in low carbon innovations, clean technologies and environmental protection in the country. That's fact number one. That demand for oil and gas will continue through the energy transition, and Canada's oil and gas industry is the largest investor in emission reducing technology.

Fact number two is that access to reliable, affordable and secure sources of energy is essential to Canadian families in our economy. Without prudent and realistic planning, regulatory actions to reach net zero by 2050 may produce unintended consequences that could ultimately undermine Canada's climate commitments. The ongoing and escalating energy crisis in Europe demonstrates the need for energy affordability, reliability and security as we tackle emission reductions.

Fact number three is that the production of Canadian oil and gas employs hundreds of thousands of Canadians and is worth trillions of dollars to our economy in the coming decades. Within the context of continued global demand for oil and gas resources, Canada's net-zero commitment should not result in unnecessary job loss, drastic increases to energy bills or displaced economic activity to jurisdictions that do not share our commitment to climate action, environmental sustainability or human rights. The fundamental point is that Canadian economic prosperity and energy security must be the foremost considerations as we move forward.

In closing, Mr. Chair, we recommend that the Government of Canada leverage the innovation and expertise of Canada's oil and gas industry as it moves forward with this discussion, that it support energy resource workers and that it recognize that Canada's energy sector can play a major role in producing needed, net-zero energy for global markets. We believe the entire upstream oil and gas industry can develop a unique competitive advantage moving forward, but to do that, we need the Government of Canada to support Canadian energy.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Excellent. That's right within the five-minute time frame. That's wonderful.

We're going to go right to Mr. McMillan for five minutes, and then Ms. Brouillette will be next.

Mr. McMillan, it's over to you for five minutes, please.

3:55 p.m.

Tim McMillan President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers

Thank you very much. Good afternoon, Chair, and members of the committee.

CAPP appreciates the opportunity to be part of the committee's study on a possible emissions cap for the oil and gas sector in Canada.

CAPP members produce about 80% of Canada's natural gas and oil from the offshore in Newfoundland right across Canada to northeast British Columbia. Oil and gas in Canada is one of the largest investors in the economy, about $33 billion this year. We make up about 20% of Canada's exports. We're proud to be one of Canada's largest employers and to have a supply chain from coast to coast to coast.

The importance of energy policy cannot be overstated, and an understanding of the global energy system is essential to good policy. As the previous speaker noted, the International Energy Agency is putting out some very relevant content that I think we should be aware of. In their base case, looking out to 2040, they see all forms of energy, including wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, bio, oil and gas, and coal growing by about 20%. That's going to mean better diets, less poverty, more homes that get heating and more freedom of movement for the poorest people around the world.

Specific to oil and gas, in the IEA's base case they expect oil to grow from its current 100 million barrels a day by about 6% out to 2040. They also expect natural gas to grow substantially from about 390 billion cubic feet of gas today by another 30% by 2040. At the end of the forecast on a global basis, they expect just crude oil and natural gas to make up over 50% of primary energy demand worldwide.

Meeting these substantial growing needs will not be easy, and doing it in an environmentally responsible way will take ongoing technology development, smart policy from government and hard work in every nation on earth.

Unfortunately, even today because of poor policy choices, there are some ongoing and new energy supply shortages that are having perverse social, economic and environmental outcomes as a result. I have a few examples. The United States is appealing to OPEC to get more oil flowing. Europe is relying on Russia to secure more natural gas. We are seeing blackouts across Asia, and several European countries are reigniting coal-fired power plants and Asian countries are building new coal-fired power plants to mitigate the damage of energy scarcity.

Now we look to Canada and Canada's policy framework that an emissions cap could or would fit into. Over the past decade, Canada has rapidly been implementing policies and legislation with the goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. These have included net-zero legislation, carbon pricing with the cost increasing to $170 a tonne by 2030, multiple methane regulations, clean fuel regulations, output-based pricing systems, offset systems and strategic assessments of climate change inside the regulatory process.

This leaves us as a world leader, certainly, and makes us in some ways an outlier relative to our trading partners and our competitors. Carbon leakage is a reality today and is something this committee must contemplate as they deliberate on these issues. Ultimately, this could lead to greater global emissions as we see more coal being utilized than natural gas and sources of supply for natural gas and oil coming from jurisdictions that don't have our high standards.

Where does our industry stand? To be clear, our industry and almost every company in it is committed to world-leading environmental performance. We are committed to improving on our production. We have a solid track record of showing reductions of emissions and of putting more technology into the field into the future.

We would want the committee to ask themselves these questions. Would an emissions cap in the context of all of the policies that are currently in place have the effect of limiting coal use globally or sustaining it? Would it have the effect of increasing investments into jurisdictions like Canada with high environmental and social standards, or lessening them? Ultimately would it meet the objectives that we're all working towards?

Thank you for your consideration of CAPP's point of view.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Excellent. Thank you. I hope I didn't cut you off there, but the exchange with the MPs is always an important part of this. We'll try to keep it moving.

Ms. Brouillette, I'll go to you next. When you've finished your five minutes, we'll move to Mr. Goodman.

It's over to you, Ms. Brouillette, for your first five minutes.

4 p.m.

Caroline Brouillette National Policy Manager, Climate Action Network Canada

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, members of the House, thank you for having me.

I'm joining you today from unceded Kanien’kehá:ka territory. I represent Climate Action Network Canada, which brings together close to 150 labour, development, faith-based, indigenous and environmental groups working to fight climate change.

Capping oil and gas emissions is not only necessary for Canada to fulfill its international climate commitments, it is an opportunity to steer our economy towards a more competitive direction in a global context that is fast evolving.

The transition away from fossil fuels and towards clean energy is happening. The question is, will we plan for it now and increase our economy and our society’s resilience, or will we wait to be left behind?

The caps are an opportunity to position Canada as a proactive, people-centred leader of this global transformation. However, for this, some key principles will have to be respected, which I will focus my remarks on today.

First, the decarbonization pathway for the oil and gas sector should align with the Paris Agreement objective to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees. As a wealthy and high-emitting country, Canada has the capacity and the responsibility to lead globally in phasing out fossil fuel emissions and undertaking a just transition. The cap must reflect the rapidly shrinking global carbon budget and Canada’s fair share of this global effort.

The cap should also equitably share the decarbonization burden across Canadian economic sectors. The oil and gas sector accounts for the largest share of the country’s emissions, which have grown by 87% between 1990 and 2019. During the same period, emissions from electricity generation, for instance, have decreased by 36%, so the cap must avoid unfairly shifting the burden of mitigation from oil and gas to other sectors, other workers and other consumers.

Second, the emissions covered should reduce absolute emissions. Carbon-intensity targets are an inadequate measure, as they aim to only cut carbon pollution relative to output and do not result in overall reductions in emissions, since production can expand while carbon intensity decreases; and this has been the story in Canada.

On the compliance side, we must focus on getting to zero, rather than on the “net” in “net-zero.” This means we cannot rely on offsets or hypothetical emissions reductions from carbon capture, utilization and storage projects that have yet to be commissioned and have failed to demonstrate actual emissions reductions.

The cap should factor in the full life cycle of greenhouse gases, including scope 3 emissions. In 2019, emissions from Canada’s exported fossil fuels were 954 megatonnes, while domestic emissions were at 730 megatonnes of carbon dioxide. If we are serious about cutting emissions, we need to take responsibility for the gargantuan carbon footprint of the fossil fuels we ship overseas.

Third, it is absolutely essential that this comes with strong and sufficient “just transition” mechanisms that ensure no workers and communities are left behind. The just transition act that has been promised by the government must set up an advisory working group in charge of establishing the process, mechanisms, tools and funding for a just transition. Unions must be consulted from the beginning of planning and be part of this group, and the funding that comes with the act must also be scaled up.

Fourth, the cap must have robust compliance mechanisms that are properly enforced. It should avoid any relief valves for industry that could reduce the policy's stringency. There should be strong deterrence mechanisms that do not allow companies to internalize these as a cost of doing business.

Fifth, the cap should foster additional emissions reductions. There are already existing and planned Canadian regulations that aim to limit and reduce the emissions of the oil and gas sector: carbon pricing, through the output-based pricing system, as well as methane regulations and the clean fuel standard. The caps should be a new, additional policy that requires additional emissions reductions.

Finally, and importantly, the policy must uphold indigenous rights and authority affirmed in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in its design and implementation.

Thank you very much, committee members.

I would be happy to talk with you during the question period.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Wonderful. Thank you for your opening comments. You're right on the five-minute mark. That's perfect.

We will go to you, Mr. Goodman, for your five minutes, and then we will hear our final introductory comments from Ms. Pierce.

Mr. Goodman, it's over to you.

4:10 p.m.

Tristan Goodman President and Chief Executive Officer, Explorers and Producers Association of Canada

Thank you very much.

I first want to acknowledge that I am speaking to you today from the Treaty No. 7 lands.

I also want to acknowledge the federal government for a successful engagement approach here; I don't think they are far down the road, and there are lots of opportunities for everybody to participate. It's much appreciated.

My name is Tristan Goodman. I represent the Explorers and Producers Association of Canada, whose members develop a substantial amount of oil and natural gas, as well as an increasing amount of renewables across Canada.

Really, the debate and discussion on any GHG emissions cap will likely involve four key components prior to implementation: a policy driver for the cap—why a cap is needed; the policy principles, which I will go over today; determining the specific cap impacts and other aspects of that; and, finally, once that has been moved forward, we will be able to have a broader conversation on the exact mechanisms of how to go about implementing such a cap.

I will focus today in my comments on key design principles and suggest that any emissions cap should involve following six principles.

First, where possible, use existing climate policy frameworks and build on successful results. Federal and provincial policies adopted over the past several years are reducing GHG emissions. Emissions reductions are being achieved at pace, and significant economic activity has been generated because of the investments by the energy industry, among others, which support an expanding domestic clean-tech sector. There is a very substantive growing clean-tech sector in Canada, which I think everybody here would acknowledge is quite positive. As the number of discrete climate policies grow, so does the potential for unintended interactions and policy consequences, thus the importance of using existing policy frameworks where possible.

The second principle is that a market-based approach should be used wherever reasonable or possible. It won't be the only approach, but markets, if nothing else, are ruthlessly efficient, and efficiency is going to be important within the endeavour to move quickly to GHG reductions. Limiting programs to in-sector compliance would limit the sector's ability to drive the clean energy transformation of the Canadian economy.

The third principle is that an emissions cap should be technology neutral and support all subsectors. Climate policy programs should support technologies based on their carbon reduction results. Likewise, no one subsector of the industry should be disadvantaged through policy decisions. All companies, regardless of product or size, should be able to participate in the energy transition.

The fourth principle is carbon leakage, as already mentioned, and any resulting Canadian economic competitiveness concerns should be considered in the policy design. Policy should address carbon leakage to protect domestic economic interests, as well as Canada's monetary policy and balance of trade.

The fifth principle relates to policy predictability. This is what will drive investment. This is probably the most key over the next 12 months. There have to be increased levels of certainty. If you want additional investment, if that's the goal, then we need to make sure these policies are evaluated in a way such that investors can see their long-term implementation. That's what will draw money into the sector. There are many opportunities here, but that would be one of the key points: We have to increase predictability around policy.

The final principle that I would raise is that indigenous reconciliation should be a central consideration to any emissions cap. The future of natural resource development in a Canadian context relies on genuine, respectful and real indigenous reconciliation, and this should be a core design consideration as you move forward on the cap.

Thank you very much.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

That's excellent. Thank you.

Ms. Pierce, if you're ready, we will go right into your five-minute opening statements so that we can get to our round of questions and answers.

4:10 p.m.

Susannah Pierce President and Country Chair, Shell Canada Limited

Thank you very much. Hopefully, folks can hear me okay.

It's a pleasure to be with here with you today. I am calling from the traditional territory of the Musqueam, Squamish and—

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Ms. Pierce's sound is not good enough for the interpreters to do their job.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Okay.

4:10 p.m.

President and Country Chair, Shell Canada Limited

Susannah Pierce

Shall I check that?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Let's see if you have the microphone right. We'll just do a quick check to make sure.

4:15 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Hilary Jane Powell

Hello, this is the clerk of the committee. Perhaps I can help.

Ms. Pierce, could you make sure your microphone is selected. On the bottom left-hand corner, choose your headset versus “speaker”. I think that might be the issue.

4:15 p.m.

President and Country Chair, Shell Canada Limited

Susannah Pierce

Indeed, I have my headphones set. The microphone should also be in sync. Is it better now? It sounds like it is.

I'm calling in from the traditional territory of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh. I am in good health and spirits as I look around the Zoom call. I hope you are too wherever you are.

I see Tristan nodding. I know you are always in positive spirits. It's good to see you, Tim and others.

Is this any better?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I'm looking to our interpreters to see if they are hearing it.

4:15 p.m.

President and Country Chair, Shell Canada Limited

Susannah Pierce

Microphone connects. This is the exact same thing I used yesterday on the same check.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you. We can restart

4:15 p.m.

President and Country Chair, Shell Canada Limited

Susannah Pierce

I'm grateful to have the opportunity to share Shell's experience in target setting and our views on the proposed oil and gas emissions cap, alongside the group of leading Canadian thinkers on energy whom you have gathered here today.

As a preface to my remarks, I would point out that Shell has set a target to be net zero by 2050 on emissions from our operations and emissions resulting from the use of all the energy products we sell. We've also set nearer-term targets for reducing our scope 1 and 2 emissions by half by 2030 and continuing to reduce scope 1, 2 and 3 emissions to net zero by 2050.

Given our corporate commitment to reduce emissions from oil and gas production and consumption, we humbly offer some views for consideration as Canada advances the emissions cap on the oil and gas sector.

First, let's talk about sectors. Shell believes that, in order for governments to deliver the reductions needed, net-zero targets must be supported by strategies and plans to accelerate decarbonization of each sector of the economy while actively managing the relationship and dependencies among the sectors. We are not alone in this view, given the role that energy and land-use change plays in driving greenhouse gas emissions within all sectors.

If we consider the power sector, which drives our scope 2 emissions, we are limited in how much we can reduce based on the access to renewable power and affordable cost, along with backup generation when the wind doesn't blow or the sun doesn't shine.

As we drive decarbonization in the transportation sector, we are limited by how much lower carbon energy we can produce by the speed in which the harder-to-abate and electrified sectors in each sector, such as heavy-duty trucking, aviation and marine, invest in their own lower-carbon energy technology and are willing to pay a green premium for lower-carbon fuels.

The oil and gas sector, unlike other sectors, is trade exposed and has its own unique decarbonization pathway informed by affordability and accessibility, the technology options in the domestic market, abatement costs and how these costs can be passed along. These are all important considerations as we contemplate emissions caps, their total target and their corresponding impact on investment and economic growth in the oil and gas sector and also on other sectors of the Canadian economy.

In short, policies targeting emissions reductions in the oil and gas sector, like an emissions cap, must not be developed in isolation. We should recognize that Canada has already made significant progress in establishing policies and regulations that encourage emissions reduction, like my colleagues have said.

Existing systems, such as the federal fuel charge, regulated methane emissions reductions target and the output-based pricing system, have supported greenhouse gas abatement initiatives across the country, and the soon-to-be implemented clean fuel regulation will drive further reductions in the industry while growing the availability of lower-carbon transportation options. Targets and related strategies for the oil and gas sector should take into account the incremental and integrated effect of existing policies and regulations at both the federal and provincial levels to ensure that they are working in harmony to deliver and even accelerate emissions reductions while also avoiding negative or unintended consequences.

Some of these climate policies have already inspired early action, which I will speak to next.

Just as sectors have different capacities, opportunities and challenges in achieving net zero, so do companies. Some companies are more advanced in our emissions reductions journey, having taken investment decisions earlier on, even when economic returns were neutral to negative and with considerable risk. Shell-operated Quest carbon capture and storage facility, which safely captures and stores more than one million tonnes of CO2 each year, for a total of approximately six million tonnes to date, is a useful example. Shell was incentivized to take early action to put systems in place under Alberta's heavy emitters regulation. Therefore, imposing an emissions cap at this stage should not penalize early actors. Further, I should add that different companies have different emissions profiles and abatement cost curves. As such, policy—as my friend Tristan suggests—should be technology neutral and flexible, providing companies with options to reduce emissions over a given time horizon.

Now let me turn to emissions reductions at home and the corresponding risk and opportunity for emissions reductions abroad. Canada can only be credible in advancing decarbonization in other countries if it has taken clear and measurable steps towards meeting its own climate commitments, but it's equally clear that meeting our own domestic commitments won't be enough to prevent the worst impacts of climate change. With growing populations and increasing demands for energy in other parts of the world, Canada must not ignore how domestic policy may drive emissions to other jurisdictions but equally the role it can play in helping to drive lower-carbon energy in the fastest-growing energy-consuming countries in the world.

Therefore, continued attention to the risk of carbon leakage and the opportunity presented by article 6 of the Paris Agreement should be considered part and parcel of an emissions cap. Similarly, carbon border adjustments need to be reviewed carefully as they could advantage some exports from Canada but also disadvantage some imports needed in the energy transition that are manufactured in carbon-intensive jurisdictions.

I often reflect on how Shell's net-zero journey reflects, to an extent, the country's journey. If we could flick a switch and achieve net zero tomorrow, wouldn't that be great. We know it doesn't work that way, and there is no quick fix given the relationships and interdependencies among sectors, producers and consumers. We have to walk this tightrope carefully. If we move too quickly, failing to produce the energy that consumers need today, prices will go up, creating real hardship, particularly for those with the lowest capacity to pay. If we move too slow or not at pace, we will miss the opportunity to grow revenues, gain market share and meet the demands of a lower-carbon energy customer base.

Amidst this uncertainty, I do, though, believe that the longer we wait to tackle emissions reductions across and between sectors, the more challenging and costly it will be to meet our climate targets. Therefore, we must work together to accelerate emissions reductions by scaling up and commercializing lower-carbon energy technologies while producing the energy consumers need today.

Let's also keep in mind the workers and communities that have depended on oil and gas for their livelihoods.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Ms. Pierce, I'm sorry, but I'm just going to ask if you can wrap it up.

4:20 p.m.

President and Country Chair, Shell Canada Limited

Susannah Pierce

Okay. I'm closing.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Perfect.