Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

—and we had resumed debate on the subamendment by Mr. Patzer.

Mr. Angus, you have the floor.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I look forward to being able to speak.

I have been—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus, if you could hold for one second, we have a point of order from Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I know there was some dispute at the end of the last meeting regarding who has the floor, and if you will allow me a moment, I would like to lay out precisely the rules that operate, because I think they will inform the credibility and the legitimacy of this committee going forward.

If a member is improperly deprived of the floor, they do have the right to raise these issues in the House. That has been established with the new Standing Orders. I reviewed the transcript of the committee meeting, and I want to read an exchange that happened immediately prior to when I sought to raise an issue of privilege.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Genuis, can you hold, please?

Those are confidential until published. I just want to remind you that those are confidential until they are published.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

It's all public on video.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, maybe I can just clarify.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

As long as you're paraphrasing and it was a public meeting—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Can he challenge the chair so that we can move on? This is part of the obstructionist tactics that he used abusively against you the last time and against the rest of our committee.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, I just want to clarify with respect to what I described as the transcript.

My staff watched the video and transcribed the text that I am about to read. It is a transcript, and it was done by my staff copying from the video: Mrs. Stubbs said, “Chair, just so we can all have confidence, can you just review the speaking list again?” The chair said, “I can't acknowledge unless there's a point of order.” Mrs. Stubbs said, “Oh, point of order. Could you just review the speaking list again for us, just so we can all be clear of what topic—on what—because it's evolved throughout the days.” The chair replied, “We are on the subamendment to the amendment.” Mrs. Stubbs, “And the speaking list is?” The chair, “And Mr. Genuis is up next on the speaking list.” Mrs. Stubbs, “And then who after that?” The chair, “Then....” Mr. Angus, “No, Chair. I was.” The chair, “No, I have....” Mr. Angus, “You said Mr. Simard and then Mr. Angus.” The chair, “We have Mr. Genuis, then Mr. Angus. My apologies, Mr. Genuis, then....” Mr. Angus, “You said.... You said Mr. Simard and then Mr. Angus.” A member, “Point of order, point of order, point of order.” Mrs. Stubbs, “I guess you can challenge the chair, Charlie.”

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The chair said, “Okay, I'm going to ask all members”—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Genuis—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Do you want me to pause the reading?

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

I think this is an attempt to filibuster and stop me from speaking. As has been proven, I had the floor. You ruled on that. If Mr. Genuis wants to challenge it, he must challenge the chair. I think we need to move on because this is a tactic he has been using to be very abusive at our committee since he arrived.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, I'll—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you for that, Mr. Angus.

I will allow Mr. Genuis to finish what he was going to say, and then I have something to add to that based on procedural responsibilities.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I am almost done, but I wanted to read the transcript because it precisely proves the point.

The chair said, “Okay, I'm going to ask all members.... We have Mr. Genuis and then Mr. Angus.”

You established that order, Chair, and then you proceeded to me. I said, “Thank you, Chair. I want to start by moving that the privilege of the member for Peace River—Westlock had been breached when the chair and the committee refused to allow him to speak on Bill C‑69.”

At that point, you'll recall that I sought to move a motion of privilege. You correctly pointed out subsequently that it is up to the chair, when a matter of privilege is raised at committee, to determine if that is a matter of privilege or not.

I think it was unfortunate that you initially allowed the debate but then ruled later that it was not a matter of privilege. Nonetheless, that was the ruling you made. and it was upheld by the committee, which meant that no motion was moved. No motion of privilege was moved because you determined it was not a matter of privilege. Since you determined it was not a matter of privilege, no motion was moved. I had the floor before I tried to move that motion and was told I couldn't and I had the floor after I tried to move that motion and didn't.

There are various means by which the chair can establish the order, but the chair in this case did establish the order. The chair determined that I had the floor, provided me with the floor and cannot then decide in the middle of my remarks that I no longer have the floor.

Once I have the floor, I have the floor unless and until I cede the floor or if there is some other reason why I have given it up.

I think the transcript is clear that I had the floor. I was given the floor properly by the chair. No motion was moved and thus I didn't lose the floor. At no point did I cede the floor, so I have the floor, Chair. The legitimacy of the committee in all subsequent proceedings depends on your willingness to uphold the rules as they are clearly written and established in the book and in the transcript.

I hope you will rule in accordance with the rules.

Thank you, Chair. That's my point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you for your point of order.

Mr. Genuis, a ruling was made and upheld by the committee. It was challenged and it was upheld. If you would like to continue, you can add your name to the speaking order as we have conversations on the subamendment.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind our committee members about some procedural responsibilities.

Chairs preside over committee meetings and oversee committee work. They recognize the members, witnesses and other people who wish to speak at these meetings. As in the House, all the remarks are addressed to the chair. That should clarify, by that passage, that the ruling has been made by the chair and the chair has the authority to do so.

I would remind all members that if you would like to speak to the subamendment—because we are on a subamendment right now—to an amendment or to the main motion, you have the right to do so. You can raise you hand. We will put you on a list and we will recognize you when your turn comes.

We will now proceed to Mr. Angus.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

On a point of order, Chair, I don't understand your ruling.