Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Genuis, I'm going to ask you to pause for a second.

Ms. Dabrusin, go ahead on a point of order.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It's about decorum again. Mr. Chair, it's about the amount of disrespect.

Again, you've made a ruling and we haven't been able to stick to that ruling because the Conservatives are not challenging the chair. They're just interrupting so that Mr. Angus cannot take the floor.

On your ruling, Mr. Angus has the floor. Are the Conservatives going to challenge the chair or are they going to keep interrupting? When they do it, the heckling and the way that they're speaking completely lacks respect and decorum for other members. It's very unparliamentary.

I think that people and workers who are watching and hoping to see us actually work on this legislation would be shocked to see the level of disrespect that is being shown by our Conservative members right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Colleagues, please.

Mr. Genuis, if you are succinct on the point of order, it's back to you. I have other members on points of order who have been waiting patiently and I want to get to them.

Go ahead very succinctly on the point of order, so I can move to the next point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'll be as succinct as my good colleagues across the way have been. I will expect the same courtesy from the chair as you have shown to members of your own party.

Ms. Lapointe suggested that I had used unparliamentary language. I take that accusation very seriously, and I would ask her to cite what language I used that was allegedly unparliamentary. That is important to me and it's something that Ms. Lapointe should respond to.

As for the implication that I do not think the chair of this committee is doing a good job in discharging his function, I will happily assent to the fact that I do not think the chair of this committee is fulfilling the functions of his office in a remotely proper way in accordance with the rules.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

Mr. Genuis—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I say that out of respect for the importance of that office. If I didn't think that office was important, I wouldn't care. The reason I care is that the rules in this place protect all of us. They protect every member and every party.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Genuis, thank you for your point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

She wants to respond, I hope.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I have several points of order.

I'm asking all members to use parliamentary language.

As we conduct the business of this committee, we focus on doing our work on the amendments and the subamendment that we're working on. All members should not use unparliamentary language as a part of the proceedings of this committee.

Thank you for raising your point of order, Mr. Genuis.

I'll go to Mr. Simard on a point or order. He's been waiting very patiently.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I apologize for the confusion. I don't have a point of order.

We already have an endless list of points of order; I won't add to it. Mr. Chair, I just want to ask if we can focus on one thing, which is what we said the last time: would it be possible to identify what the point of order being raised refers to?

If the point of order being raised refers to the fact that my Conservative colleagues don't agree with a decision reached by the chair, we'll be going round in circles until Christmas if we don't get past it.

I want my Conservative friends to be aware that there are people at home watching what we're doing. I don't think they can use this to say on their social media that we're doing a good job of defending our fellow citizens. Right now, we look like anything but legislators.

Consequently, I would encourage my Conservative colleagues to identify up front what they're talking about in their point of order; if their objective is just to waste our time, they'll have to answer for that to their fellow citizens watching this sad comedy, one that's boring and serves absolutely no purpose.

Mr. Chair, as our operating method, could we perhaps adopt the idea of identifying what the point of order that we're raising refers to. If it still concerns the speaking turn that Mr. Genuis thinks he has but doesn't have—a decision has been made on that point—it will be clear to everyone that what Mr. Genuis is trying to do is waste our precious time.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you.

First of all, I'm going to address Monsieur Simard.

Monsieur Simard, I was listening very diligently to what you were saying. Thank you to the interpreters for interpreting so well.

Where we are is we're on the subamendment on Timmins. Mr. Angus was given the floor to proceed after the committee upheld a previous ruling. After the chair was challenged, a previous ruling was upheld.

We have proceeded with Mr. Angus, who has the floor. Mr. Angus has been waiting patiently for the number of hours he's stated.

We have Mr. Angus on the floor.

Colleagues, I'll remind people, since we started the motion and the amendment and the subamendment, that if you would like to speak to any of these, raise your hand. We'll put you in the queue to participate in this important debate on the subamendment on Timmins.

If you do not want to to debate the subamendment on Timmins that Mr. Falk brought forward, we can proceed and committee can decide on that subamendment. But if we are not allowing members to participate, we cannot move forward into that subamendment.

Mr. Angus, before I go to you, we have several other points of order that I want to go through, as these members have been waiting patiently on their points of order.

We have Mr. Angus next on the point of order and then I have another member. I will go to the other member when Mr. Angus is done on the point of order, but I will also remind colleagues to use your point of order and please identify procedurally what your issue is. Be succinct. It's not an opportunity to get into a lengthy debate, but please be succinct with your point of order so that it's clear.

We will go to Mr. Angus on the point of order.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I had raised earlier my concern about the health and safety of the staff, but what equally concerns me now is that I sit the furthest from the chair, so I'm trying to hear the rulings and my right to participate is interfered with by what is turning into what sounds like a barroom mob action and bating members on the other side doesn't help. While the chair's trying to speak, I hear a number of Conservatives heckling, picking fights, and then saying that they don't respect the chair.

It is interfering with my rights.

I'm asking, Chair, that you actually tell the Conservatives that they have to show respect and stop interfering and heckling so that I can do my duty.

I can't even hear you half the time because the Conservatives are turning this into a mob.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Angus—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

A mob is a dangerous criminal organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Angus, for that point of order.

Colleagues, all members want to participate on this committee without interruption. I'm doing the best I can to navigate through everybody here. If you raise that you do want to speak, like members have, I will acknowledge members to the best of my ability.

Everybody's getting an opportunity to participate here.

Mr. Angus also wants to participate in the debate on Timmins—I believe Timmins is in his riding—which Mr. Falk has brought forward an amendment on and other members around the table here would also like to participate on this important amendment.

Once again, I'm hoping we can move forward and let all members participate.

Look, before I go to the point of order—and we are raising points of order on everybody's points of order here—I do remind colleagues to be very succinct.

Mr. Aldag, I have you next but Mr. Patzer has a point of order on Mr. Angus's point of order, so I'm going to give Mr. Patzer the floor.

Mr. Patzer, I'm going to ask you to be as succinct as possible and identify what your point of order is.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

I'll be very, very succinct.

I just think it would be beneficial for the committee to be aware that over the three previous meetings Mr. Angus has raised no less than 57 points of order, so when we want to talk about who is actually interrupting and preventing members from speaking, Mr. Angus is leading the charge.

In this meeting alone, he's added no less than five points of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

I would ask that we focus on the task at hand.

Ms. Dabrusin, I'll go to you on a point of order, and I want to go to Mr. Aldag, who has been waiting patiently.

Mr. Aldag, you will have to wait patiently a little longer.

Ms. Dabrusin, go ahead on the point of order.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Angus has the floor by the chair's own ruling, which keeps on getting interrupted. The idea of saying that he is interrupting his own ability to speak is ridiculous. He is not interrupting his ability to speak. He has the floor. That's the ruling of the chair. I say to the members opposite to challenge the chair if you disagree with that ruling or to let Mr. Angus speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Once again, Ms. Dabrusin, thank you for your point of order and the reminder. This committee has proceeded with Mr. Angus having the floor. I have previously stated that if a member would like to participate, to acknowledge that. We'll put them on the list, and when their turn comes up, they can participate in the debate. Every member will have the opportunity to participate.

Mr. Angus, as Ms. Dabrusin has correctly identified, does have the floor. If there is a challenge to Mr. Angus's having the floor, I would ask a member to challenge the chair on the right of Mr. Angus to have the floor. No member here is challenging the chair on that ruling, but members are, unfortunately, impeding the work of this committee if we do not let Mr. Angus participate in his debate on Timmins.

I'd like to reset and I hope that with a bit of a thoughtful reset from all of us, we can think about allowing the member to move forward on his debate and then we can all have an opportunity to interject on the amendment and move forward.

I'm going to go to Mr. Aldag, who has been waiting patiently. He has a point of order. I'm going to recognize Mr. Aldag on the point of order, and then I'm going to go to the next member, who's been waiting patiently, on a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Aldag.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have been waiting patiently in accordance with how you set out the speaking order on points of order. We've seen a continued deterioration in respect for the chair, and that's very concerning for me. In order to have a functioning committee, the chair needs to be able to make rulings on things like points of order, which you are attempting to do and you are continuing to be interrupted. We have decisions being made, rulings you have made, that Mr. Angus has the floor on a subamendment that was put forward related to Timmins.

I'm sure that Mr. Angus wants to speak to it. I would like to hear him speak to it, but we have to have an effectively functioning committee with the chair being respected and the chair's rules being followed, so I would just ask all members to move beyond the points of order. Games are being played now. Let the chair rule on points of order as they are raised, but then get back to where we're at, which is actually with Mr. Angus having the floor to debate the subamendment.

That's what I am for at this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Thank you, Mr. Aldag, for the point of order.

I will remind everybody again that Mr. Angus does have the floor. We are on a subamendment on Timmins. It is Mr. Angus's time to speak as the member of Parliament for that constituency, which I've never been to, on the subamendment. I'd like to know more about what Mr. Angus's concerns are in this subamendment and the importance of it to the amendment and to the main motion.

If you would like the floor, we can offer any member on either side of this table to participate. All you have to do is to let us know. You'll go on the speaking order on the subamendment and you'll be able to participate in the debate.

Now, I'm going to go to a few more points of order before we get back to where we were.

Mr. Kelloway, welcome to our committee. Thank you for joining us. You have a point of order.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

It is actually great to be here. I know you're probably thinking, “What did he have to drink before he came here”, but I certainly didn't drink anything.

Number one, I'm hoping I get to hear Mr. Angus take the floor, but I also want to highlight how important the motion and Bill C-49 and Bill C-50 are, if I may. In Atlantic Canada, in Nova Scotia, and in particular in Cape Breton—Canso, where I'm from, the amendment to the Atlantic accord—

[The Chair, Liberal, George Chahal]

Mr. Kelloway, I'm going to ask you to halt, because I have a number of people once again. I just want you to focus—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Common decency means following the rules.

[An hon. member]

I have a point of order.