Evidence of meeting #29 for Natural Resources in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Association
That's correct.
Some of the very small reactors are still in that development stage or pilot stage. Some of them are 30 megawatts, 50 megawatts, the concept being that some of them could be running mining operations or be in remote rural areas, pending regulatory approvals, of course.
The concept is there. There are companies exploring those technologies, but they're a bit further out on the conceptual or the deployment stage.
Liberal
Claude Guay Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Another opportunity to export that I've heard about in the marketplace, and that's more on the uranium side, is that our allies in the U.S., the U.K., and I believe in France have submarines using nuclear propulsion. Have we ever considered, or should we consider, selling uranium to our allies for their propulsion needs?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Association
Canada is a country that sticks to non-proliferation agreements. All that it does is based on non-proliferation activities. The Canadian nuclear industry works under that very strict regime. Canada does not partake in those type of activities.
Liberal
Claude Guay Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
I have a question for Mr. Moon or Mr. O'Connell.
You talked a lot about the Asia-Pacific market. Have we considered exporting hydrogen to some of the European countries? Some of the provinces in Germany, for example, really want to have ammonia delivered. Have we considered going to Europe? What would be the path, if there is one, to export ammonia to the European market?
Vice President, Business Development, Hydrogen Canada Corp.
Yes, we have. I believe it's the EverWind project in the Maritimes, in Newfoundland. They're looking at exporting green hydrogen and ammonia. It's going to build a massive wind farm and then build a large hydrogen plant. I believe a lot of it was going to Germany.
We are based in western Canada. We only have a cursory knowledge of the market in Europe and the kinds of activities being developed in eastern Canada. We follow it in the media, but we don't have any special insight. Our target is the Asian market, because we're western Canadian-based.
Liberal
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Doran, thank you for joining us.
We launched this study given the specific circumstances of the trade dispute with the Americans. This situation was compounded by the events in Venezuela and, more recently, the conflict in Iran and its impact on energy prices.
At the outset, Normand Mousseau and Pierre-Olivier Pineau appeared before the committee. They told us that, in their opinion, Canada wasn't an energy superpower. As a result, it couldn't have a significant impact on the cost of energy. I can tell you that our study is mainly framed around this idea. We want to see how we can develop energy infrastructure to meet global demand, but also to help with the current tariff crisis.
I find it quite striking that you came here with a topic that I don't think that we're discussing at all. This topic is the development of markets to the south, in the Americas, and the opportunities available there. Our actual motivation for this study stems from the fact that our partners to the south are currently a bit less reliable. These partners are the Americans, who shall remain nameless, and people who may not be ready to comply with trade agreements as we used to see them.
I would like to hear you talk about opportunities in particular. You spoke about Mexico earlier. You mentioned a potential demand for clean energy there. I would like you to elaborate on this idea.
Full Professor, School of Political Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you, honourable vice-chair.
There's actually a great deal to say. For Canada, right now it's quite encouraging to see reliable countries reaching out to us to really deepen our trade relations within a multilateralism structure that they want to renew and that they consider the solution to the current difficulties with the United States. Canada was an observer member of the Pacific Alliance and Mercosur. However, Brazil, for example, is now genuinely inviting us to join. Without ruling out more bilateral trade relations, these other countries are really emphasizing the fact that Canada should join this trade alliance. In Latin American countries, green technologies and the ability to innovate and provide solutions are highly valued. We know that Mexico is an oil producer that nationalized this resource. Yet it's currently grappling with a water crisis and seeing the major impact of climate change. Climate change is also driving a Central American migration.
Countries such as Mexico and Brazil are realizing the value of turning to countries with expertise in renewable energy and a solid vision and regulatory framework. Interestingly, your question focuses on the economic aspect. However, a desire to assert a political alliance is also apparent. It's worth noting how the south is looking to Canada as a reliable and valuable partner in quickly developing new trade alliances.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
You spoke earlier about your training today with people from Global Affairs Canada. Are you aware of any Canadian strategy to further develop these trade agreements or bilateral ties with Latin American countries, perhaps?
Full Professor, School of Political Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Actually, yes. There's a clear strategy with Mexico. We have this much-vaunted Canada-Mexico 2025‑2028 plan.
Our high-level embassy staff say that never before has an alliance been so solidly established. The two governments have committed many resources to try to work quickly—also with a view to renewing the free-trade agreement that includes the United States—and to strengthen the Canada-Mexico hub. Clearly, something is happening at this level.
When it comes to Brazil, things look quite good. An expert told us that Brazil, which is obviously a key giant for us as well if we want to develop our trade relations with the south of the Americas, tends to opt for multilateral rather than bilateral agreements. It's a traditional position.
Brazil isn't against bilateral agreements. However, it would rather that Canada join Mercosur, for example, and that we work within this type of agreement, instead of within the bounds of bilateral Canada-Brazil relations. We'll need to see how all this plays out. For the time being, this remains the official position. That said, Canada is being strongly urged to join Mercosur.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Is Canada currently reluctant to enter into trade agreements with other Latin American countries, perhaps for fear of upsetting our American neighbour and jeopardizing the renegotiation of the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement?
Full Professor, School of Political Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you for—
Full Professor, School of Political Studies, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
A quick response....
Certainly. You have to remember that Mexico is constantly receiving what I would call threats from the U.S. government saying President Sheinbaum is unable to govern her own country. It happened again a few days ago.
We therefore have nothing to lose by further developing our trade relations with these countries the United States has identified as not being good allies.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Terry Duguid
Thank you, both.
Mr. Rowe, it's good to have you back. You have five minutes.
Conservative
Jonathan Rowe Conservative Terra Nova—The Peninsulas, NL
Thank you very much.
It's not a whole lot of time, but I have a whole lot of questions. I apologize if I cut you off on any long answers. I have my thinking hat on. I'm trying to learn, and I'm trying to educate the public all at the same time.
My first question is for Mr. Christidis.
You mentioned how the nuclear system is set up in Canada. I believe it's almost like a monopoly. One of the big partners is Brookfield. Am I piecing this together? Are there any subsidies or is there any real government help for the nuclear industry, and does that directly impact and benefit Brookfield?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Association
The first point is that no Canadian energy market in any way is a monopoly. Usually, the way it works is that each province designs the electricity system that best reflects its own reality. For example, in Quebec, there is a very strong hydro experience, because of the resources that are there. In Ontario, there is a blended system with renewables, for example, gas and nuclear. That is a hybrid competitive system.
Conservative
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Association
The nuclear component is the CANDU technology. That is the Canadian technology, historically, that was developed by Canadians. That is the supply chain. Most recently, the Canadian companies, Cameco and Brookfield, purchased Westinghouse. In the international space, Canadian companies own two of the very important technologies, right?
CANDU, itself, operates in a number of different countries.
Conservative
Jonathan Rowe Conservative Terra Nova—The Peninsulas, NL
It's good to see Canadian companies prosper and do well across the country. Some voters and some Canadians are just hesitant about what's happening with Brookfield and some of the subsidies across the country due to the climate.
You talk about global and everything, and you talk about nuclear. It's interesting.
I'm looking at a map we received in one of the first studies we did on mining. This map shows two big uranium deposits in Canada. One is in Saskatchewan and one is in Labrador. I don't believe the Labrador mine is actually operating and actually putting uranium into the system for nuclear energy.
How do we get that mine up and running? How do we get that part into the supply chain, and perhaps even partly into the global supply chain?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Association
I'm not privy to the Labrador experience, per se. Again, each province defines what resources it chooses to develop. For example, Nova Scotia has recently reversed original decisions that wanted to limit nuclear and mining in those spaces. We see a global trend of these reversals. Countries like Sweden, Switzerland, Finland and Norway are all reversing previous hesitations to nuclear in general and are moving down the nuclear energy track.
Conservative
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nuclear Association
Each province will have to make that determination. All I can speak to is the domestic and international trend that points to enormous opportunities. On just the construction side, there's about $400 billion U.S. in a new build-out of nuclear energy. That's construction on just the nuclear energy side, let alone the uranium side.
Conservative
Jonathan Rowe Conservative Terra Nova—The Peninsulas, NL
Thank you.
I have a question now for Brendan O’Connell or perhaps Bryan Moon with Hydrogen Canada Corp.
I had a conversation this morning about the ammonia industry and fertilizer. They're very reliant on tax credits and subsidies. We need perhaps more of them to make some industries work. Does Hydrogen Canada Corp. and the hydrogen industry in Canada need more tax credits and subsidies to be competitive on the global market?
Vice President, Business Development, Hydrogen Canada Corp.
I can answer that.
We would rely heavily on the investment tax credits and also the current carbon trading system, potentially in either Alberta or B.C. We've worked that into our model. The investment tax credits definitely support the economics of our facility.
The third piece to it was that there's currently a heavy insurance burden on rail traffic for dangerous goods in Canada. We were part of the conversation between CN and Transport Canada looking for some economic support, not only on the insurance for those railcars but also on the freight costs. Transport Canada developed a safety framework that was fairly onerous and increased costs. Ammonia is toxic.
The tax credits work for us. The carbon levy system works for us. The challenge was the rail transport. That's eventually what kind of stopped us from moving forward on our facility in Alberta.