Evidence of meeting #15 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was survey.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-Pierre Corbeil  Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada
Jean-Rodrigue Paré  Committee Researcher
Marc Hamel  Assistant Director, Population Health Surveys, Health Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Danielle Bélisle

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. The guests this morning are Mr. Marc Hamel and Mr. Jean-Pierre Corbeil. They will be making a presentation of approximately 10 minutes. We will then follow with a round of questions. Mr. Corbeil, over to you.

October 17th, 2006 / 9:10 a.m.

Jean-Pierre Corbeil Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, co-chairs, and members of the committee, I am very pleased to speak to you today about the sources of current health and immigration statistics concerning health care and official language minority immigration outside Quebec. I also take this opportunity to talk to you about projects currently underway. I will begin my presentation by talking about health care and then move on to immigration.

First and foremost, let us talk about statistical data on population health. Many sources of data on health are available at Statistics Canada. One of the most important is our survey on health care in Canadian communities, which began in 2000-2001. We work with a sample of approximately 133,000 respondents, which allows us to make projections for 133 socio-sanitary regions in Canada. This survey provided projections on health determinants, the state of health, and the use of health care services in Canada. Issues that are relevant to our study include mother tongue, knowledge of official languages, the language spoken at home, and the language spoken with one's doctor.

One important factor must be mentioned. The Statistics Canada Website contains the profile of health indicators for linguistic groups defined according to the mother tongue or the first official language spoken, in each of the provinces. In addition to the profiles in surveys for 2001 and 2003, it will be soon possible to access the profile for the 2005 cycle.

Many cycles of the General Social Survey at Statistics Canada have to date dealt with various themes and topics relating to health. Allow me to mention surveys on health, assistance and social support, smoking, social support and aging. In view of the limits of the sampling taken for several surveys, it was not possible to obtain statistics on francophones in each province. However, reliable projections can be made for all francophones outside Quebec.

The new Canadian survey on health measurements is the first Canadian survey that has allowed us to collect important information on population health, according to direct physical measures such as blood pressure, height and weight, blood samples, urine samples, and other tests used to gauge physical fitness, par example. The Canadian survey on health measures also produces a questionnaire to allow for the collection of information on different aspects of health and other demographic and socio-economic characteristics. Again, given the size of the sampling, which was approximately 5 000 people, age 6 to 79 years, projections are perhaps possible for all francophones outside Quebec, but this remains to be seen.

Health care concerns, of course, not only reside in health measures, but also on the supply and demand of services offered in the minority language. With respect to offer, the 2001 Canadian census contained a two-pronged question on the language used most often in the workplace and other languages used regularly in the workplace. This information is very useful to the extent that it is not only possible to become familiar with the potential pool of health care professionals, who while on the job, use French, but also allows us to know the pool of professionals who, even if they do not use French regularly, indicated that they were able to carry out a conversation in this language.

A study published by Ms. Louise Marmen and Sylvain Delisle from Statistics Canada in 2003 on health care services in French outside Quebec revealed the difficulties encountered by francophones outside Quebec with respect to obtaining services in French, resulting from the fact that in many provinces, francophones are proportionately higher in numbers in rural areas, whereas francophone specialists or other professionals likely to provide services in French, work mostly in large urban centres. The study also concluded that even in provinces where francophone communities are more likely to settle in urban areas, Francophones do not necessarily live in cities where there is very high percentage of francophone professionals.

The issue of the demand for services is directly related to offer. Many francophones who would like to receive services in French do not necessarily make the request and very often are unaware of the fact that the health care professionals they are dealing with have a knowledge of French. We are dealing here with the issue of the active offer of services in French.

On October 10th 2006, Statistics Canada began collecting data as part of the Post-censal survey on the Vitality of Official Language Minority Communities. The result of a partnership with eight federal government departments and agencies, it is the first time that we have conducted a survey of this scope dealing exclusively with official language minorities. This was a survey of 50,000 people that includes 17 modules on topics such as education, early childhood, linguistic trajectory from childhood to adulthood, access to health care in the minority language, cultural activities, linguistic practices in the workplace, sense of belonging and subjective vitality, just to name a few.

It is clear from reading the health care module that it will enable us, among other things, to gather relevant information on the importance of obtaining services in one's language, the level of difficulty obtaining services in one's language, reasons why people feel it is difficult to obtain these services in the language in which they were received, and the extent to which francophones request services in French. We will continue to gather data for the Post-Censal Survey on the Vitality of Official Language Minority Communities until December 2006, and the first statistics will be made public in October 2007.

Let's now move on to immigration statistics. We could not examine the issue of immigration in francophone minority communities without looking at the situation facing francophone minority communities where most members are born. The Survey on the Vitality of Official Language Minority Communities will provide a wealth of statistical data to help understand the challenges and obstacles facing francophone minority communities in Canada.

At Statistics Canada, the census is the only major source of data that enables us to provide information on French-speaking immigrants outside Quebec. The census paints a very clear picture of immigrant populations within the various francophone communities. Unfortunately, this source of data is not used enough. Bear in mind that the francophone sample from the Survey on the Vitality of Official Language Minority Communities is made up not only of people whose first language is French, but also of people whose first language spoken is French. But given how low their proportion within francophone minority communities is, it will be difficult to obtain accurate estimates of French-speaking immigrants outside Quebec.

One of the major Statistics Canada surveys on the settlement of immigrants in Canada is the Longitudinal Survey of Immigrants to Canada. In 2003, Statistics Canada published the results of the survey's first cycle. Approximately 12,000 of the some 164,000 immigrants aged 15 and over who arrived in Canada between October 2000 and September 2001 participated. They were interviewed for the first cycle of the study about six months after they arrived. We interviewed them again two and four years after their arrival. The results of the third cycle will be released next March.

The data gathered during the three-interview cycles will make it possible to study and gain a better understanding of the settlement process for newcomers. Given the relatively small sample at the end of the third cycle, some 8,000 respondents, the Longitudinal Survey of Immigrants to Canada does not, however, enable us to obtain reliable data on French-speaking immigrants outside Quebec. it is nevertheless clear that if steps were taken to oversample French-speaking immigrants, such a longitudinal study would provide a wealth of information on the settlement process for these immigrants in francophone minority communities.

In closing, I would like to say a few words about the graphs and statistics I distributed. Statistics drawn from the 2001 census show that using the first official language spoken criteria, there were some 53,000 French-speaking immigrants outside Quebec or slightly more than 1 per cent of the immigrant population. For the non-immigrant population, the proportion is 5 per cent. Bear in mind that these 53,000 immigrants whose first official language spoken is French live, for the most part in Toronto and Ottawa, where the respective number fluctuates around 11,000. What's more, in addition to these 53,000 immigrants whose first official language spoken is French, there are about 70,000 immigrants for whom we cannot determine whether English or French is their first official language spoken. Therefore, Statistics Canada created a residual category called “first official language spoken English-French”. Using information provided in response to the question on the other languages spoken on a regular basis in the home, we did note, however, that a large proportion of these immigrants tend to turn more towards English than French, even if they indicate that they have some knowledge of both official languages.

Nonetheless, we cannot write these immigrants off from the pool of potential French speakers, by assuming that they cannot contribute to the development of minority French-language communities. Though there is no established definition of a francophone immigrant, there are ways to push studies further in order to gain a better understanding of how allophone immigrants who speak both official languages can contribute to the expansion of French within francophone communities.

Thank you for your attention. I would be happy to answer your questions in both official languages.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil.

We will now begin our first round. Mr. Murphy will ask the first question.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would also like to thank Mr. Corbeil and Mr. Hamel.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

I should point out that each person will have seven minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Thank you.

We received briefing notes from the Library of Parliament, which I found somewhat worrying. I noted that 14 per cent of francophones in New Brunswick do not have access to a community health centre. I have seen the methods used to compile those figures, and I would therefore ask you whether those results could be inaccurate.

I have observed that the answers on which the figures are based are somewhat subjective. This is not an objective study with accurate data, except where population figures are concerned. Those are very accurate. As politicians, we have a great deal of experience with studies, polls and margins of error, and can well understand that.

Is there a controlled margin of error when subjective data like these are used?

9:20 a.m.

Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

We know full well that, when we ask people about their perceptions of the possibility of obtaining services in their language, we are not looking only at health but at all areas. When we conduct studies on literacy and ask people whether they have access to a library, those people may not necessarily be aware they have a library. So they could answer that they have no access to a library.

There is of course a subjective component when we ask people whether they have access to health services, for all kinds of reasons. We could ask them whether they have difficulty accessing services.

I know that, as part of the vitality survey — which is currently underway — we ask people whether they have used health services. Then, we ask whether they were served in their own language, were able to receive services in their own language, and requested services in their own language. You do not have to stop at asking whether services were available; you can ask whether people used the services.

For example, when we ask people whether they are aware that the Health Information Line exists, or that a community health services centre exists, they might say no. If people say they know it's there but it is difficult to obtain services, we can ask them why. That means we have some control when we ask such questions, and that is exactly what we wanted to do in the post-censal Survey on the Vitality of Official Language Minorities.

I do not know what that 14 per cent figure you mentioned is. I do not know what study it comes from. As I said, we can go further than just asking people whether they have access to health services in their own language. There are other ways of going about it. We can ask other questions to obtain more objective, or somewhat more reliable, information than we can gain just from their perception.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

To better understand your answer, can you tell me if this refers to the 2001 census.

9:20 a.m.

Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

It is probably a different survey from the one carried out by Statistics Canada. I know for a fact that the Santé en français research network undertook many surveys on that topic. Researchers from the network also carried out many qualitative inquiries in which they ask people to specify the offer or availability of services. I know that those do not fall under Statistics Canada; that is why I cannot provide an opinion on them. Nor am I familiar with the way other questions were formulated.

As I was telling you, we often come across surveys that contain subjective questions. Yet, there are ways to ask questions so that the credibility and objectivity of answers are reinforced.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

Pardon me for interrupting you, but the research analyst may make a few clarifications.

9:25 a.m.

Jean-Rodrigue Paré Committee Researcher

I may point out that the statistics referred to by Mr. Murphy withdrawn from a 2002 study published by the Fédération canadienne des communautés francophones et acadienne entitled French-Language Health care — Improving Access to French-Language Health Services. This study is well known and has been widely distributed.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

You have 90 seconds remaining.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Are you certain that people know the difference between a community health centre and a medical clinic? Has it been properly explained to them?

9:25 a.m.

Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

I am not familiar with the survey carried out by the FCFA. Normally, at Statistics Canada, we carry out pilot projects before doing the survey. The pilot projects are qualitative tests during which we ask people specific questions to see if they understand. That helps us validate the wording of the questions.

Education is shown to be a striking example. There is several levels of education in the provinces, and different names are designated to describe the levels. We talk about daycares as often as we talk about child care centres, for example. Asking people if they understand the questions helps us make sure that people are clear on the concepts that we talk about.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

Thank you very much, Mr. Corbeil and Mr. Murphy.

Now over to Ms. Barbot.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for appearing before us, gentlemen.

You talked about the fact that the sampling was not providing reliable data. If I understand correctly, you are saying that it is sometimes possible to apply a more exhaustive methodology to obtain data.

With respect to francophone minorities outside Quebec, witnesses are constantly telling us that the sampling does not paint a clear picture of things. This applies to the state of health care for francophones outside Quebec and even more so for immigrants.

What can we do to overcome these discrepancies?

9:25 a.m.

Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

Statistics Canada has always tried to search for a compromise with respect to the size of samples. You know just as well as I do that the size of the sample is directly associated to the total cost of the survey. The objectives of the survey are taken into consideration, but the number of surveys carried out by Statistics Canada is huge. As stipulated in section 41 of the Official Languages Act, Statistics Canada did everything to ensure that when it comes to key surveys, I mean surveys which represent important stakes and a marked interest for official language minorities, the department should attempt to oversample.

Obviously, there is a cost, which is usually quite high, associated to this. We carry out surveys and sampling, we try to adhere to proportion of subpopulations in each province. Yet, external clients, other than the federal government, are usually the ones who fund surveys carried out by Statistics Canada. Our responsibility is to tell them that a given subject may be of interest for official language minorities, for example and ask them if they could possibly carry out an oversampling.

From time to time we are able to find people who are willing to fund the oversampling. That is what we were able to do for the study on adult literacy. We were able to carry out oversampling of francophones in four provinces in addition to the anglophones living in Quebec. We carried out a study on the vitality of official language minorities, specifically because it is often very difficult to make accurate representation of each francophone community within the various provinces. The surveys on health provide a very clear example.

With respect to the survey on health care in communities, a sample of 133 000 respondents allowed us to make estimates concerning official language minorities for each province, which was certainly not the case when we talk about immigrants. We know that the percentage of immigrants is very low. We would also have to carry out oversampling in the case of immigrants.

In fact, a longitudinal study on Canadian immigrants had initially involved 12,000 people. We are constantly having to raise awareness among fundraisers and explain to them of a possible need for oversampling in a survey dealing with a subject of national interest. Obviously, that brings in additional costs.

The rationale for the post-census survey was precisely to compensate for the situation. On the health funds, I believe that we are going to obtain some very interesting results. In fact, I was saying earlier, the census is underused insofar as issues dealing with immigration. Regardless, there is reason to plan for surveys that would take into consideration stronger representation of French-speaking immigrants within the sampling.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

As regards health, I think that the current statistics are consistent.

9:30 a.m.

Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

I would say that health is the one area in which we have been able to obtain the most reliable estimates. The statistics cover the widest range of linguistic subpopulations in Canada. The same applies to the post-census survey.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

In the SCFA survey, we referred to earlier, it was said that reliable information was not available. Can you tell me what the current status is now?

9:30 a.m.

Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

As I was saying earlier, there are two major concerns for those working in the health care sector: offer of services and access to health care, as well as training of medical doctors. I know that the minority vitality survey, given the size of its sampling will allow us to obtain very reliable estimates concerning difficulties with regard to access to health care services and the provision of services in French.

With respect to professional training, I know that there are research groups and work groups working on the ground. So it is as if corporations have been established, such as the one between the University of Sherbrooke and the University of New Brunswick, for example. In the health care perspective, we now have quite a good number of tools.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

As for the anglophone community in Quebec, do you have more reliable data?

9:30 a.m.

Senior Population Analyst, Demography Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

We succeeded in obtaining a considerable sample in Quebec, not only for Quebec anglophones by mother tongue, but also for allophone immigrants who turn towards English. Since the concurrence between English and French is an important issue in Quebec, we significantly oversampled allophones who turn towards French, to understand the situation. We asked the same question about access to health care and the various means of developing the vitality of communities.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

In that case...

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Guy Lauzon

I am sorry, Ms. Barbot, your time is up. We are now going to ask Mr. Godin to put his questions.