Official Languages Committee on Dec. 6th, 2006

[Léo Robert, Director General, Conseil communauté en santé du Manitoba]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have to answer the question?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

That depends on the time members take to ask their questions, because they have a total of five minutes.

[Léo Robert]

I think the federal government can help the minority communities in two or three areas.

First, health hasn't been developed at all. Authorities have really started to concern themselves with French-language services elsewhere than in our hospital only two or three years ago. In view of the fact that there has been very little investment in the past two years, the Conseil Communauté en santé has essentially developed three service delivery models for the rural communities.

First there are community access centres like the one in Notre-Dame-de-Lourdes that we were talking about earlier. Second, there is the telehealth program. We're installing equipment to connect the Francophone communities to the telehealth network for the first time. This has never been seen before back home. We were going to hook up small Anglophone villages near us, but we weren't reaching the Francophones.

With a little money from the projects of the FASSP, the primary health care adjustment fund, we could hook up eight Francophone communities in one year.

The third model is the mobile team's model, as Mr. Gagné mentioned earlier. These teams consist of four or five health professionals who travel from village to village to serve the communities in the rural regions.

Lastly, we'd like to develop other models, but there are start-up costs.

The second area, as Mr. Simard mentioned, is communications. I hope Mr. Boucher will mention it as well when he testifies because it's an area that's in serious trouble in our community. Pardon me, Sylviane, but with all due respect to La Liberté, I feel that Francophones don't have access to the communication services they need.

The third area is support—and I hesitate to say it—for Francophones asserting the rights that follow from provincial and federal statutes. Those statutes aren't always complied with, and, when they are implemented, people rely entirely on the interpretation the governments make of them. That's where we're in trouble. Had it not been for the Court Challenges Program, we probably wouldn't be here today.

Thank you very much for your question.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

You're welcome. We're here to move things forward. I thank you.

Ms. Aucoin, I'll ask you virtually the same question, but at another level.

We've heard about the Court Challenges Program, but we haven't seen a lot of jurists during our trip.

Can you explain to me your work in the field? How do we go about moving matters forward? If someone like Mr. Robert needed your services, how far could that go for a jurist?

[Louise Aucoin]

First, I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that you haven't heard from a lot of jurists.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

People have talked a lot about court challenges, but we haven't met a lot of jurists.

[Louise Aucoin]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe that the jurists that I meet in the various associations of French-language jurists are very committed in the various communities, whether it be through representative organizations or other groups. I think that's a great help in defining rights and explaining them to people. That...

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

We do as well, but I can tell you that we haven't seen a lot.

You're a jurist. When you help a population develop—we must have called on your services, asked you what should be done in such and such a situation, because I think you're one of the pillars of development—what exactly is the approach you take?

[Rénald Rémillard, Executive Director, Federation of Associations of French-speaking Jurists of Common Law]

Jurists take action in two areas: first, assistance for the development of language rights, that is to say finding the necessary tools to make progress in this area, but also in the justice community, and a distinction must be drawn between the two.

The justice community comprises the police departments, the right to appear before the courts, such as the Court of Queen's Bench or the Provincial Court, and also commissions. In certain provinces, there are administrative law commissions that handle leasing issues and that kind of thing. People often have to appear after losing their driver's licences, if they want to challenge the decision. That's done in this context.

There's also the entire matter of legal information. The members of our communities live under the rule of law, as we very well know, and they therefore need information, on matters such as divorce, for example. It's not so much that a person needs a divorce, but he or she generally needs legal information. Immigration is another area: we've made presentations and offered workshops on immigration. We've intervened to provide support in other sectors. For example, we can enable people to gain a better understanding of medical instructions through presentations. The associations of jurists in each of the provinces do a lot of this kind of work. They really work in close cooperation with other sectors, but the justice community is a sector in itself: the courts, the police departments, legal aid. If you refer to the Criminal Code, there's the entire matter of criminal trials. In other provinces, that goes beyond criminal matters.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you. We've really gone beyond the scheduled time.

My question is for Mr. Tétreault. A little earlier you talked about the training that's given in Sherbrooke and Ottawa. In Francophone minority regions—we're used to calling those regions that, but we are Francophones recognized by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms—this type of training isn't given because it's much too costly. Should special programs be created to assist the regions that are located far from the major centres where medical or other training is given?

[Dr. Michel Tétreault]

Obviously, when a young person decides to take medical training in French rather than in English in Manitoba, that person has to bear much greater expense if he or she goes to Ottawa or Sherbrooke. That person can't live in the family home, for example. Recognition of that fact would definitely help encourage applications from people who want to go to study elsewhere.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

There are programs to attract doctors to the regions, but there could also be programs to enable young people to go and learn medicine outside the regions.

[Dr. Michel Tétreault]

Indeed, that works both ways. They should be sent elsewhere to learn, but afterwards they should also be brought back to the regions. Back home, we've made a lot of efforts to stay in contact with these people. We periodically invite them to do internships at the hospital where, for example, we try to find them summer jobs. If they're from Manitoba, they can come and work at our research centre during the summer. That enables them to stay interested in our institution. It also enables us to talk to them about prospects, about how we can open doors for them when they come back.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

As regards jurists, I'd like to provide some supplementary information. In the east, they were invited, but they didn't appear. The jurists were there in Vancouver.

In addition, the federation's national office is in Winnipeg, and we knew we'd have the opportunity to meet you here. So I don't think jurists have forgotten. They're aware of our work.

Earlier you talked about the RCMP. In the 2003 action plan—I said this a number of times in committee in Ottawa—there's $750,000 to be invested in aid for the communities. However, every time Francophones outside Quebec appear in court to assert their rights, the government appeals. The government agreed to pass Bill S-3, which, in particular, amended section 41 of Part VII of the Official Languages Act. It provides all these tools, but, if a citizen uses them and wins, the government appeals the case. Don't you think that happens too often?

That's what happened in Quebec in the case of the food inspectors, who the government wanted to transfer from Shippagan to Dieppe, and in the case of the RCMP, where it was prepared to go to the Supreme Court to challenge the fact that it was a federal responsibility. Can the RCMP conceivably not be a federal responsibility? I'm also thinking of the electoral boundaries of the riding of Acadie—Bathurst, where the government wanted to take part of Allardville and attach it to the riding of Miramichi. Once again, there was a challenge, but we convinced them not to challenge the issue because it was shortly before the election.

There have been challenges in all areas. I'd like to have your opinion on that subject.

[Louise Aucoin]

Obviously, if we have rights and we can't ensure they are respected, we're stuck in a bad position. In other words, if we hadn't had the Court Challenges Program, in all the examples that you have cited, Mr. Godin, the communities wouldn't have had the means to have their rights respected. If we have rights and can't have them respected, that's quite unfortunate.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

I'll give you another example of a case in New Brunswick. We had to go to court because the RCMP had given a Francophone woman from Tracadie-Sheila a traffic ticket in English. That case went to the Supreme Court. That's crazy.

Someone here is reminding us that the Liberals were in power at that time.

But do you agree with me, as Mr. Robert said so well, that the act isn't being complied with? There's a lack of political will.

[Rénald Rémillard]

You're hitting on a very important point. Challenges are an extremely important tool for community development. We want to make demands. We all know the history of Francophones outside Quebec over the past 100 years or so. Since the Charter was passed, since section 23, we've been able to get our own schools. Before that, we didn't have any schools. We have them now because we were able to appear in the courts and win our cases. It is an absolutely essential tool for the communities' development to be able to go to court and to demand that the obligations set out in the act be met.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you.

Mr. Murphy.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I come from New Brunswick. We have a very strong Acadian community, which has a great deal of vitality. We're discussing the vitality of the official language minority communities, and we've seen a lot of situations this week. That impresses me a great deal, because this is the first time I've visited the Francophone communities in the west.

This afternoon, we visited a bilingual service centre for the three levels of government. We don't have that in New Brunswick. I tip my hat to this community. I also have to hail Mr. Simard's work. It's outstanding.

Everything's working well here in Winnipeg, but sometimes there are deficiencies or problems at the various levels of government—the federal, provincial and municipal governments—and at the various agencies and commissions, and we therefore need tools. The Court Challenges Program was one of the very important tools.

After Christmas, another committee of which I am a member, the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, will be meeting. Mr. Vic Toews will be there to explain why that program has been cancelled. You've previously said that you were opposed to that decision. That's obvious from the evidence we've heard during this trip. I imagine Mr. Toews will have something positive to say on how things will turn out. Do you have any solutions or suggestions to offer him? Do you have any to offer us to help the cause of the Francophone minority communities? That could be a lot more powers for Mr. Fraser, another mediation office, perhaps an awareness program for the levels of government. I don't exactly know. In one sense, there are no limits. Do you have any suggestions to make?

[Louise Aucoin]

We've begun to think about it because we believe we need an expanded program. Your mediation suggestion is extremely interesting. We need to rethink the structure and we have extremely significant needs. In talking with other jurists, we thought that we could propose a new, different program that would meet other, even more significant needs. Expanding the program would be something new. It's definitely done a good job in equality and linguistic terms, but new needs are being felt.

We've started to think about how to give it a new purpose. That would meet the needs of the communities. I think that's important. Do you want to add something?

[Rénald Rémillard]

Access to justice in French has always been FAJEF's core principle. That's our starting point. Our principle is not to reduce access to justice. For a jurist, that's an essential point. We see that constitutional rights are extremely important. Having access to the courts to defend our constitutional rights is a core principle. Talk to jurists and you'll see that there's a consensus on that among virtually all of them. That's the very core of Canadian citizenship. Instead of reducing Canada's Court Challenges Program—which, as you know, has two components—we should instead be adding other components or expanding the program, make it a program that provides more general access to justice in constitutional areas.

So this principle could be extended and expanded and could become more general than it is now. The core principle is access to justice on constitutional issues. It's very important to have access to justice. There are a lot of questions to consider, but that could also enable the Francophone communities, which are entitled to equality, and other groups or communities that have different interpretations and different interests to appear before the courts, and to be able to do so.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also belong to the Francophone community which is unfortunately a bit isolated: that's the Quebec community. Mr. Rémillard, you said in your address that the entire history of the country's Francophone minorities was known. That's quite the contrary. I admit that this tour has enabled me to open up to the reality of the minorities, even though we sensed that reality in Ottawa, as part of the committee proceedings that I attended. In Winnipeg, in the Saint-Boniface area—whose architecture reminds me of that of Saint-Hyacinthe—that reality has been somewhat concealed, which has resulted in barriers and a certain lack of understanding.

Ms. Aucoin, you said that one of the purposes of Bill S-3, which amended section 41 of the Official Languages Act, was to promote the use of French. As a Quebecker and Canadian, I'd like to thank you for helping to build the Canadian identity through linguistic duality. We're often less aware of that fact in Quebec because we don't have to fight for our schools. I have a great deal of admiration because, through certain demands, you've managed to create a school system, which is fundamentally important for a community. Ultimately, I've made more of a comment.

Through its action plan, the federal government has made the communities responsible for promoting linguistic duality. Wouldn't it be more up to the Canadian government to ensure that the official languages are national languages, as was said this morning in Regina? The Canadian government should therefore not only give you that responsibility, but also play a more active role.

I'd like to have Ms. Aucoin's comments on that point.

[Louise Aucoin]

We definitely want to work in partnership with the various departments to help the government, if we have the means to do so. We have to be given the chance to work together, because we know our communities well.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

In more concrete terms, the Action Plan for Official Languages provided $150 million and the support program, approximately $300 million a year. Has FAJEF benefited from the action plan as such?