Official Languages Committee on June 12th, 2007

[Christopher Schafer]

To answer your first question, I think the law, if I can use an analogy, is like a living tree; it constantly is evolving and developing. So yes, with the charter, for example, I believe it celebrated its 25th anniversary. I'm generally familiar with the battle and struggle for English-language rights and French-language rights in Canada, and that develops over time. I don't think the law or the charter or any section of the charter is static, for example, so section 15 may be interpreted in one way in 1982, or 1985, and down the road may be interpreted in another fashion, depending on who may be interpreting the law at that point. So I would say yes, we have a body of jurisprudence on the charter, for example, in different sections; however, it's continually under review and development and will evolve, I'm sure, for years to come.

To answer your second question, I haven't done the legal analysis that's probably necessary to answer that question; however, my knee-jerk reaction would be that there's a principle that past governments can't bind future governments, so that may be applicable here. However, with that said, I would answer the question by saying, as I've stated before, that I don't support the court challenges program. I support the elimination of that program currently.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you. My question is for the Quebec Community Groups Network, the QCGN. Last week, representatives from the CCP mentioned that the program was created to fund court cases to promote the equality rights and language rights guaranteed under the Canadian Constitution or the Charter.

In the documents we received, it says the following:

A case is a test case only if it deals with a problem or raises an argument that has not already been decided on by the courts and has the potential to assist official language minorities in Canada to protect their language rights. Under our agreement with the federal government, the Program is only allowed to fund a case if it advances official language rights under the Constitution or the Charter and is an important test case. All of the Program's funding presently comes from the federal government. The government agreed to provide money to the Program only after making a list of things the Program is not allowed to do with it. Under the agreement with the government, we cannot fund any of the following: challenges to provincial law, policy or practice; any case that covers an issue already funded by the Program or that is already before the courts; complaints under the Official Languages Act;

Of what significance was the CCP to the QCGN?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Unfortunately, we have run out of time. You may answer during the next round of questioning.

We will now move on to Mr. Ouellet.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to come back to Ms. Martin-Laforge on the issue of the basic rights of minorities.

In my riding of Brome—Missisquoi, anglophones represent about 18% of the population. I feel I must defend this minority group which is different from the rest of Quebec, as I would defend the French language elsewhere. Generally speaking, Quebec anglophones are included in the groups mentioned by Mr. Schafer. They have money. But the anglophones in my riding do not. We both belong to the odd fellows, and you know those people. It's the same thing in the Pontiac where anglophones do not have a lot of money.

Why do anglophone groups in Quebec, who truly need to take their case to court, for instance to promote literacy, need the Court Challenges Program? When the current government cut literacy programs, it affected my riding the most, because the anglophones in that riding have a high rate of illiteracy and are very poor. Those who had more money left. Only the poor stayed behind, and these are people I like, even love. I would like us to protect these people and I would like them to defend their rights.

Can you please tell us about the rights of these minorities? There are two official languages.

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

I would like to say from the outset that I don't quite agree with you about the number of wealthy people.

English-speaking anglophones in Quebec.

With the Townshippers in Pontiac, the Coasters on the north shore, dans les Îles de la Madeleine, there are many regional anglophone associations that have exactly the same problems as francophones outside Quebec in terms of exodus of youth, rural issues. It's quite amazing.

The bigger problem for these folks around alphabétisation or around access to justice is that they don't have the wherewithal financially, and probably there aren't the sophisticated tools around them, to bring these cases to the fore.

I think it's not just the Townshippers or the Coasters or the English-speaking Madelinots, there are a growing number of English-speaking Quebeckers living in Montreal. They do not have the traditional anglophone roots from Westmount or the town of Mount Royal. They are really very much in need of this program, and they are in need of attention by this committee and other committees like this.

Anglophones in Quebec need exactly the same attention and rights and access to this kind of program and other issues.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Could you mention a few cases to help the committee understand how the Court Challenges Program could help Quebec's anglophones?

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

School closures are a problem. In fact, you probably do not hear about this problem outside Quebec. There are no stories of English schools closing in Toronto, Sudbury, British Columbia or New Brunswick. It is important to know that children must spend hours on a bus in the morning to get to school. We are not recognized as minority nationally, and that is very important.

I believe that the schools could use this program.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Do you believe that it is important in the workplace for anglophones in minority communities to be able to read, write and understand what they are doing? Could this program not help them challenge the fact that they have lost their rights?

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

In just a few days we will be publishing a report on English speakers in Montreal. The consultations took months, and they involved groups, individuals and experts. The priority for everyone was employability: the ability to work, not in English, but just to work, given their bilingualism.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Schafer, you are one of the directors of the Canadian Constitution Foundation.

Who is the president and where is he from?

[Christopher Schafer]

The executive director is Mr. John Carpay, and he currently resides in Alberta.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

He's in Alberta. Okay.

Who invited you here?

[Christopher Schafer]

Mr. Carpay asked that I attend on his behalf because he had other business with the Nisga'a mediation.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, somebody invited the organization. Who invited you?

[Christopher Schafer]

I understand the committee invited Mr. Carpay, who then invited me to attend on his behalf.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

For the record, it was not me. It must have been the government that invited you here.

Did somebody from the government meet with you before we had this meeting?

[Christopher Schafer]

No.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Nobody talked to you on the phone?

[Christopher Schafer]

No.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay.

Madame Martin-Laforge, you were talking about consultation, and you were not consulted. Your organization was not consulted, is that right?

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

That's right.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Are you not worried that this government is saying Quebec will look after the francophones and Canada will look after the anglophones?

[Sylvia Martin-Laforge]

We are incredibly worried.

I only want to say that the Quebec Community Groups Network has just gone through a re-mobilization, if you will. We have moved our offices from Quebec City to Montreal. We have increased our staff. The QCGN is worried and has put a lot of resources into re-mobilization to make sure the government hears the point of view of the English-speaking community in Quebec. It's why I'm so happy to be here today.

Through the work we have been doing in Montreal, in the greater Montreal region, the community has also seen a re-mobilization of the community in Montreal. There are 700,000 people in the greater Montreal area. On consultation, the government has an obligation to consult a very important minority in this country, which is the English-speaking community of Montreal.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Ms. Foulem, we even spoke on the weekend with Jean-Maurice Simard, who was a Conservative, but a Progressive Conservative. I don't want to attack the Conservatives, but I know that the cuts they have made and, in particular, the fear they have created have hurt all regions of Canada.

In New Brunswick, even though these rights are entrenched in the Constitution, there are still problems. The situation is still fragile, and people still need to go to court. The food inspectors in Shippagan had to go to court in order to keep their services in that town, despite the fact that New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province in Canada.

Is the situation still fragile even in New Brunswick?