Official Languages Committee on Jan. 29th, 2008

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Go ahead.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

As you know, the English versions of documents often say “The French will follow”. In this case, we heard the question; the answer will follow.

[Some members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

We have seen what Mr. D'Amours holds close to his heart.

Mr. Michael Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you for your presentation.

I have a question about our programs that work in cooperation with the provinces with respect to education in the second language. Maybe you could tell the committee how many students benefit from this program and roughly what portion of the funds for the entire action plan have been allocated for education in the second language.

[Hubert Lussier]

The numbers are approximately as follows. There are, roughly speaking, 2.4 million students presently in Canada learning a second official language. Of those, 300-plus are in French immersion. And although the federal funding that goes to the provinces--

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

That is 300,000.

[Hubert Lussier]

It's 300,000. The portion of the federal funding that goes through the provinces towards second language instruction targets in particular, but not only, immersion. So you could say that we focus a lot on immersion, although we also spend money on the improvement of what we call basic French or intensive French. There are all fashions of teaching the second language.

The amount of funding that goes to second language instruction is, roughly speaking, 40% of the whole education support envelope.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

The vast majority of that 40% goes to the 300,000 students. Would that be fair to say?

[Hubert Lussier]

I would say a majority probably goes to immersion.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Do those transfers happen through the provinces, or do they go directly to the school boards?

[Hubert Lussier]

They go through the provinces. All of those moneys go through the provinces through bilateral agreements.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Maybe you could tell the committee a little more generally about the bilateral agreements and how they work. For every student there's a per head allocation. Is that how it works? Or does the province remit to the federal government that this is how many students we have in French immersion, or English immersion, and this is what we're asking for? Is it a transfer?

[Hubert Lussier]

There's a mix of historical formulas, the subtleties of which probably go back to 30 years ago, and some targeted funding that is indeed more of a specific function of the numbers of students who do learn the second language in every province. That's how the allocation of the money that is in the action plan was devised.

At the beginning of the implementation of the action plan there was a lot of discussion between our department and the CMEC, which is the Council of Ministers of Education, and indeed between the provinces and territories that are members of the council, between themselves, to arrive specifically at the numbers you're asking about.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have one other quick question. Generally speaking, is enrolment in French immersion rising? Is it falling? Is it steady?

[Hubert Lussier]

Overall in Canada it is rising, although in some provinces there have been some small decreases. Because it has increased in Ontario in particular, which is obviously the most populous province, as well as in the two western provinces, Alberta and B.C., the numbers have increased over the past few years.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you. Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Merci beaucoup. Thank you, Mr. Chong.

We will now move on to the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Gravel.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for coming.

I am a new member of the Official Languages Committee and I wonder whether the number of francophones in Canada is increasing or decreasing?

[Jérôme Moisan]

According to the last census, the number of francophones in Canada has increased, but their proportion to the population as a whole has decreased. I can show you the figures if you want, but the overall number is going up and the proportion is going down.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

This is peculiar. The number of francophones is decreasing in Montreal and Quebec, while it is increasing in Canada as a whole.

[Jérôme Moisan]

Honourable member, this has to do with proportions. We take the absolute figure and divide the denominator by the global population in the same environment. Insofar as decreases and increases are concerned, we make a distinction between absolute numbers and numbers that reflect a proportion of the population. This is what the census shows.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do you see any difference between the threat to English and the threat to French in different provinces? For instance, is English under threat in Quebec, in your opinion?

[Bruce Manion]

It is hard to tell. We study the census data and we investigate the observations and conclusions. In absolute numbers, there is no threat, but we must still look at the trends behind the figures. We have to study the birth rate as well as other things such as the immigration rate, arrivals from other provinces or other places. This figure is not easy to interpret. Naturally, it is difficult to conclude from these fluctuations in numbers whether the English or the French language is actually declining. Many other factors come into play.