Official Languages Committee on Jan. 31st, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Parliamentary Secretary. Unfortunately, your time has run out.

We'll now move on to Mr. Godin. You have five minutes, Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try and speak more softly: it seems to disturb Mr. Lemieux otherwise. His hearing is too good and it hurts his ears. So I won't speak as loudly.

Let us use Mr. Lemieux's figures. Let's suppose for a moment that I accept them at face value. He said that the government has spent $810 million. However, $933 million was earmarked. Now even if we were to accept the figures put forward by Mr. Lemieux, there is a shortfall of $123 million. I'd be more inclined to believe the figures provided by our research analysts, but Mr. Lemieux then goes on with that piece on festivals. We'd have to check the extent to which their budgets were cut before they got the $30 million he referred to. Last year, the festivals didn't get any money, and they had to fight at the House of Commons. There is nothing to boast about.

For my part, I'm talking about teaching in the language of the minority. That is where the cutbacks were made, and that is where there was projected spending of $933 million. Action plan and regular program expenditures totalled $933 million, and yet the government spent $810 million. Now I'm not talking about festivals, that's something else. I'm talking about educating our young schoolchildren.

Mr. Fraser, you were clear when you spoke about the institutions. You referred to the Boréal College. I went to Sudbury, and I met the principals. Mr. Lemieux came with us, I think, when we went there. I think that he was part of the official languages committee at the time. He was able to observe the positive impact the college has on Sudbury and the surrounding areas, and how it's benefited Hearst, Kapuskasing, Timmins, and all of the northern Ontario region. All this was achieved because of these institutions.

Let me use your words. You said that francophones might be wondering whether or not to send their child to a school where he or she can't play sports, where there may be no library, laboratories, and where there aren't enough classes, etc. The reason why the action plan worked from a health care standpoint is that there was enough money set aside. The reason why it hasn't worked in the area of education is perhaps due to a lack of money, in fact a shortfall of $132 million.

I'd like to hear your reaction to this.

[Graham Fraser]

We will be taking a close look at the figures that were released this week. That will be part of the performance analysis we carry out in relation to the government. I will take into account the member's misgivings and his analysis of the figures. However, I hesitate to make a spontaneous analysis of such fresh figures. Indeed, as you say in English: “The devil is in the details”. So we'll take a close look at this devil and determine what all this means.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Do I have a minute left? Good.

We're going to meet with a number of public servants. Has a study been carried out on public servants' lack of training? I know that there has already been a big focus placed on training. Now what we're starting to hear is that once you reach a certain age, they no longer want to send you off for language training, etc. Has the commissioner's office undertaken a study on this matter?

[Graham Fraser]

No, we haven't conducted any such study. However, it is an issue which concerns me. As I said earlier this morning, intuitively, I think that there is a gap between actually being able to communicate and just passing tests.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We need to start telling the universities that the labour market is indeed for doctors, and lawyers, but also for public servants. The curricula should be geared to ensuring people are able to manage in both languages. And I think that it is a failing on the part of these institutions when they don't seriously believe that language is an integral part of learning a profession.

[Graham Fraser]

That is precisely the message that I am sending directly to the universities. It is even more important now, because the public service is recruiting to renew itself. This is a very important time to send out the message, and I do so every time the opportunity arises. When I travel across the country, I make sure to meet with university representatives in order to pass this message on to them. I have already met with the committee of deputy ministers that is considering the issue of public service renewal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

We will now proceed with our fourth and last round of questions. This gives the members who have not yet spoken an opportunity to participate in the exchange. I will also advise members that if they are willing to share their time, they should indicate that to me before speaking.

Monsieur St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I will be sharing my time with Mr. Mauril Bélanger.

First of all, thank you for your words of welcome, Mr. Chairman. I represent a large riding in northern Ontario that includes the Highway 11 corridor, which runs through cities like Hearst, Kapuskasing, and Smooth Rock Falls. It is a very hospitable, welcoming and innovative region.

I would like to raise a problem as my friend, Mr. Godin, did.

During the last redistribution, we faced a situation in northern Ontario where communities of interest, when it came to French minority language speakers, became an important problem. I know that Monsieur Godin faced that in New Brunswick. The process of the redistribution did not really permit very effectively the francophone leaders an opportunity to make sure their communities were protected.

I know this committee has engaged itself in the issue of the boundaries of ridings vis-à-vis francophone communities, and I believe your predecessor as well was engaged in that. I am just wondering if you could make a comment on the measures that you see...and thank you for being here, by the way, with your team. Just quickly, so that my friend Mauril has time as well, I'm wondering what measures, more proactive possibly, can be taken in the future to prevent.... We won't find a perfect solution, because there will always be winners and losers, sadly, but are there better ways to approach the next redistribution that will arrive on our doorsteps in the next few years?

[Graham Fraser]

The member raises a very interesting question, Mr. Chairman.

We've done some work on it in the past. It will be a subject that, as the next distribution approaches, we will be looking at very carefully.

I would ask Catherine Scott to add something.

[Catherine Scott, Director General, Policy and Communications Branch, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages]

You probably know that our office did publish a study looking at the whole redistribution process. We set out a series of recommendations for the Chief Electoral Officer on how the process should be undertaken in the next round. We will be doing a follow-up on those recommendations to see how they have been taken into consideration.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I want to thank my colleague for sharing his time with me.

Commissioner, I would like to make two suggestions, if you want to take note of them. They are important issues for official language communities, and the first deals with early childhood and day cares.

As you will recall, the Conservative government, even before swearing in its cabinet, had stated that it would cancel the day care agreements signed with the provinces. These agreements contained linguistic clauses and, for the most part, communities were happy with them. My suggestion is as follows: since the $250 million set aside by the Government of Canada to encourage the private sector to create day care spaces has not produced results, you could perhaps suggest that the government consider giving this sum of money to the official language communities to set up day cares. We are well aware that the work starts in the early years. We would perhaps be more successful if this sum of money were transferred to the provinces so that it could be used by the official language communities. That is my suggestion. A word to the wise!

Here's my second suggestion. It has become increasingly important—as you yourself pointed out—to examine the issue of immigration. When Ms. Caplan was minister, the caucus of francophones outside Quebec had convinced her to include an amendment in a bill—and the Commissioner of Official Languages of the day supported us—which stipulated that immigration programs must respect the current make-up of Canada, in other words, a ratio of 75% to 25% anglophones and francophones, which is not currently the case. In immigration, it is more like 90% anglophones and 10% francophones. It would perhaps be helpful, Mr. Commissioner, to undertake an in-depth study of past practices and of those that are not used. For example, I know there is a good budget for training newcomers to Canada in English as a second language, but very little for French as a second language. If we really want to have a long-term impact, we must take action. If nothing is done, the phenomenon will intensify in Canada and we will end up with francophones in Quebec primarily, and fewer and fewer anglophones, and the opposite in the rest of the country. This concentration will lead to an untenable situation. So Mr. Commissioner, I believe that it would be helpful to examine the broader issue of immigration.

Thank you very much for your indulgence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Bélanger. Unfortunately, your time is up, but I think that the commissioner has made note of your very constructive comments.

We will now go to the government side. Mr. Petit, you have five minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Fraser. I am happy to see you again.

I have retained certain aspects of the action plan, because it did not always exist. The official languages acts have not always been applied.

I am going to use the expression "francophones outside Quebec". Censuses by Statistics Canada show that since 1960, the number of francophones who are not necessarily bilingual has gone from 800,000 to 1 million. There are more than 100 schools, 21 colleges and universities, 21 community radio stations, 2 daily newspapers, and 30 weekly papers. In addition, Radio-Canada and the satellites currently broadcast cultural and information-based programs that did not exist in the past.

There seems to be a difference between minority communities in the west and those in the east. That is why we need your help. My children are studying at Collège Saint-Jean, in Alberta. In some fields, the quality of French used in teaching is even superior to what it is in Quebec. Collège Saint-Jean has become a faculty, since it now has a dean. We get the impression that in Alberta, at least in that case, there is a willingness to establish French in all areas, and this is without an official languages act. In Edmonton, you can easily study in French in almost all fields. And no one has had to hold a gun to anyone's head. I am talking about this particular case, because I am linked to the Collège Saint-Jean, which could be called one of the components of the University of Alberta.

I don't see that kind of willingness in the east. The central provinces seem to be lagging behind, and that bothers me. You have visited several groups, and you have been with us for some time now. What are the specific characteristics of the communities in the west and in the east, the anglophone ones in comparison with the francophone ones? How can the government modify its practices to meet their needs? There are places where you almost have to hold a gun to someone's head to get things to change, whereas in other places, it works.

I do not want to get into a power struggle. I am trying to promote the francophone cause, but there are also anglophone communities in Quebec. For example, there are small anglophone minorities in the Gaspé Peninsula that do not have any access to services in their language. There is a disconnect.

Could you elaborate on this question?

[Graham Fraser]

I would like to highlight two aspects in response to the member's question.

What struck me in the case of Edmonton is that they conducted in-depth analysis of what would be needed to provide training in French, not only in elementary and secondary school, but from kindergarten right through the 16^th year. The analysis included the post-secondary period. They established 14 criteria including support from the school board and school principal, the hiring of a competent staff and support for that staff, and support from the community. It was not difficult, but the criteria were rigorous and logical, and they were applied. Often, in other provinces—and I do not necessarily want to make an east-west distinction—in other school boards, the same level of rigour was not used.

Another factor that cannot be neglected is the significant economic growth in Alberta. Some provinces are dealing with negative growth, but there is growth in Alberta. When I mentioned Edmonton as an example in other provinces, they often told me that Alberta had the necessary resources to take such steps. However, even provinces with fewer resources than Alberta must be rigorous.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, I will try to be a bit more rigorous as regards time, Mr. Commissioner.

Mr. Nadeau, are you ready for your final comment?

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Petit, perhaps you should take a better look at the history of these communities before saying that that situations occur more often in some places than in others. I think some people will be somewhat disappointed with your remarks. I will leave you to think about that.

Commissioner, I want to go back over some topics that have already been raised, without however doing so in detail. As Mr. Bélanger said, something must be done in the case of Justin Bell, involving the RCMP. It is also a matter of respecting the Contraventions Act. There was the Mercure case, in Saskatchewan; and now we are talking about the Bell case. At some point, it gets a bit ridiculous.

As I said at our last meeting, people are going to start wondering what point there is to learning French, when they cannot be served in French and they are even ridiculed. You are very familiar with the subject.

The case of Mr. Léger involving Air Canada is an example. I commend Mr. Léger for his courage, because people don't always have time to kick up a fuss to be served in their language. When I wanted to register at Elections Canada en 1995 in Saskatchewan, I had to go to the office three times in order to be served in my language. I wanted to register at Elections Canada in French. That is all I will say about it; it even made the newspapers.

It is a good idea to focus your attention on the base in Borden, but you should also consider the Department of National Defence. The representatives of the department are not bad guys, but the official languages file is not doing so well, especially as far as French is concerned.

You said that Canadian Heritage was looking after the policy and that it was to examine what is happening both in other departments and its own. There is a lack of objectivity—you used that word as well—because the same department is responsible for coordinating, managing and evaluating. That is a rather extraordinary situation.

We know that the Conservatives say they are able to make everything snow white thanks to the Federal Accountability Act proposed by Mr. Baird. Are there any aspects to examine in that regard? I would like you to elaborate on the topic of governance. You also raised the issue.

[Graham Fraser]

I did indeed raise that question in the last annual report, and I expressed exactly the same concerns about a potential conflict of interest and the danger of a directive coming from an office next door having less influence than a directive from above. In Ottawa, a message from the Privy Council has more influence than a message coming horizontally from another department.

We are taking care of that issue. We have commissioned a study on governance from Professor Donald Savoie. In addition, they have already made recommendations in the annual report on that.

I am going to ask Ms.Scott to say a bit more about this study Mr. Savoie is currently working on.

[Catherine Scott]

Just before Christmas, we asked Mr. Savoie to undertake the study. He has already conducted a series of interviews and he is in the process of writing his report, which we expect to receive within a few weeks. We have asked him to look at the repercussions of transferring the Official Languages Secretariat from the Privy Council Office to the Department of Canadian Heritage. We have also asked him to make recommendations on how to strengthen horizontal governance in general in the federal government. We planned to talk about this report in our next annual report.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

We have one last speaker, this morning. Mr. Godin, are you still ready to take the floor?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Since I believe that it is important for us to give you our impressions, Commissioner, I would like to go back to the incident involving Mr. Léger and Air Canada. There was also the case of Mr. Thibodeau, who had asked for a can of 7UP, but couldn't make himself understood. He was arrested by the police and the case went to court. Air Canada fought and was prepared to go all the way to the Supreme Court. That is incredible!

In the case of Mr. Léger, Air Canada supported the decisions of its employees in Halifax and felt it was a good thing to have him miss his flight. However, the video shows that Mr. Léger was very calm. That doesn't encourage people to fight for their rights. It sends a dangerous message. If Mr. Léger, who is the director general of the Acadian Federation of Nova Scotia, was unable to take his plane and a decision was made to make an example of him, imagine how much trouble the ordinary citizen would have!

I raise my hat to Mr. Thibodeau. I raise my hat to Ms. Marie-Claire Paulin who had a bone to pick with the RCMP in New Brunswick. She fought the case in court, and a settlement was finally reached. She had to fight the RCMP to obtain bilingual service in a bilingual province. Imagine that! Canada is bilingual, New Brunswick is a bilingual province, and people still have to fight. That is why we cannot send Mr. Lord too many compliments. He was premier at the time.

The problem is Air Canada's attitude. We can not only blame the employees, but also their supervisors who make the schedules and must ensure that the necessary personnel is on duty to provide the desired service. Air Canada could have blamed its own supervisors and told them that they had forgotten to include bilingual people on those shifts. Air Canada could have apologized to Mr. Léger. I don't know if they can hear me, but I still expect Air Canada to apologize to Mr. Léger and to the population of Canada for the way that francophone minorities have been treated in Halifax.

I don't want to leave out the Moncton airport. Personally, I generally do not go through that airport. One evening, I arrived at the airport and I demanded to be served in French. The woman was forced to bring back someone whose shift was over. She arrived at the counter and she served me in a sweatsuit. She wasn't even wearing her uniform. That shows they were short-staffed.

As commissioner, you have your work cut out for you, especially with institutions that, like Air Canada, continue to fight the system.

Earlier on, Mr. D'Amours talked about the lavatories. Don't smoke the toilet. That is comical. Air Canada could improve little things like that or like the shifts for employees, and it stubbornly refuses to do so. What's more, when an incident occurs, Air Canada takes its employees' side and violates the Official Languages Act.

I wanted to share my feelings and thoughts in this regard with you.

[Graham Fraser]

Mr. Chairman, my answer will also cover some aspects of the questions put by Mr. Nadeau, who mentioned some rather sad cases involving the RCMP. I think there is some common ground in the remarks by both members.

I will say two things. First of all, the aspect that is missing in both of these incidents is the important value underlying all involvement by the Office of the Commissioner and which is at the basis of the act itself. I am talking about respect. When institutions do not show respect to Canadians citizens, incidents occur.

Secondly, I have already noted that certain institutions are caught up in a series of incidents. Complaints are received, investigations are conducted, and reports are produced. Then more complaints are received, more investigations are conducted, and more reports are produced.

We are trying to develop a third way of dealing with institutions with the systemic problems. We are looking at developing the ombudsman role. In addition to dealing with complaints, in addition to notices, we will sit down with the institutions that we can clearly see have a problem. We will try and see how we can establish a new dialogue in order to change their behaviour.

We are currently holding discussions with Air Canada. I have spoken with the Canadian Forces and I have met the new Commissioner of the RCMP.

We are very much aware of the incidents raised by the members of Parliament, and these are very important matters. This is something to follow up on in the annual report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

All right.

Commissioner, that is a very constructive way of wrapping up the discussion between a committee and you and your organization. All there is left for me to do is to thank you for your sustained attention and that of your colleagues. I thank you again for your four-pronged analysis, it was very interesting. I also thank the members.

The meeting is adjourned.