Official Languages Committee on April 17th, 2008

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

What do you think, Mr. Thériault?

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

I am not a psycholinguistics expert, but...

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, but you are a professor. You have experience in this area. You can't fool me this morning, Mr. Thériault.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

Indeed the studies I have seen show that it is preferable to start learning a second language at an early age—bilingualism being cumulative if one can call it that—and to follow those kinds of immersion programs.

There may be no psychological barriers to learning a minority language at 8 years old, but there may be at 16 years old.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Someone stated earlier that there should perhaps be more television advertising to promote learning another language. The timing is right for this because people are now open to this idea.

It is the governments, however, that are preventing them for doing it. I just received a letter from the administration at Calvin Christian School in Hamilton. Because of federal government budget cuts, that school's administration had to cut classes that were being given in French, where students were learning French. The principal of this school has sent us letters requesting our assistance because he wants the children to learn French.

There is a fundamental problem and that is a lack of will on the part of governments. Canadians are willing to recognize both official languages and they want to make them their own. However, it is the governments that are putting up barriers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Please be brief.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

With respect to the legal issue, I agree that legal recognition of both languages in Canada allows for a language policy. Both languages have been recognized but there has been no move to the next step which is developing a true language policy.

As you know, the issue of schools cannot be solved by the courts. You can't make anglophones go to an immersion school. However, I think that something can be done in terms of a language policy, and that is what has not been determined yet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, sir.

We will now end our first round with Mr. Pierre Lemieux, Parliamentary Secretary for Official Languages.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming this morning and for your presentations.

As you told us, immigration is an important demographic factor, especially in minority official language communities. This is an issue that is of great interest to our government. A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of announcing on behalf of the Minister for Citizenship and Immigration more than $7 million in core funding to support francophone immigrants in Ontario. That funding was for areas such as health, education and economic development.

My perception is that the main linguistic challenge for language minorities lies in the retention and integration of immigrants into our communities. We also need strong institutions that will encourage as complete a community life as possible.

I would like to know how you view the contribution of immigration to minority official language communities.

Perhaps we could begin with you, Mr. Jedwab.

[Jack Jedwab]

I believe that immigration can play an important role in improving the demographic situation of francophones in minority communities. To do this, we need to look quite closely at the destinations of immigrants.

According to the most recent census, most francophone immigrants who decided to settle outside Quebec chose Toronto and Ottawa. The majority—over 50%, based on figures I saw recently—picked one of these two cities as their destination.

That said, Manitoba is experiencing problems with regard to sponsorship. For example, we're trying to attract francophones from the Maghreb region to our communities. We are trying to do this elsewhere too.

I remember having done a study, in 2000, for the Office of the Official Languages Commissioner on the contribution of francophone immigration to the development of minority-language communities in British Columbia. When I called places in British Columbia, I asked where I could find francophone immigrants and I was told there weren't any. And yet, according to the census, there are rather a lot of them. I was quite surprised then by this reaction.

There is also the whole issue of integrating francophones. This relates back to what I said earlier with regard to the question of identity and inclusion. Who is francophone? In order to ensure this contribution, we have to ensure that our definition of francophone is inclusive. However, we must also be realistic. In Toronto, and elsewhere, it's also important for francophone immigrants to learn English, as do many francophones outside Quebec in their place of work. In fact, there are very few workplaces where French is the only language spoken, outside New Brunswick and Quebec. Even here in the National Capital Region, people need to be bilingual, except perhaps in some areas of Gatineau. So we must also take that reality into consideration.

You have to be realistic about what the expectations are. We're going to encounter in cities like Toronto the phenomenon of multiple identities, dual identities. Given this evolution we're headed toward, I don't think the debates we're having today are going to be the same in 20 to 30 years.

We'll have to address more of this mixing and this duality, and the census will be struggling with those things. We'll be struggling with issues of identity, as is the case not only here but in many other pluralistic countries throughout the world. That's what we need to think about, even in terms of the contribution of immigrants who are French-speaking in places outside of Quebec.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Denis, Mr. Jedwab talked about a critical factor, that is where immigrants move to. Yet, there is a real difference between the rural and urban regions. My riding is located just beside Ottawa, but it is quite rural. The challenges are different.

Could you share your opinion on the different immigration challenges for rural and urban regions?

[Wilfrid Denis]

With regard to the linguistic communities, immigration can play a very significant role, but the challenge is the lack of coordination between policies and federal programs. The federal government and the provinces are ultimately responsible for recruiting immigrants. If the provinces do not conclude federal-provincial agreements on immigration in order to take an active role in recruiting immigrants, this creates a problem right from the start. Furthermore, there must be a partnership with the language communities. In fact, if the provinces reach federal-provincial agreements on immigration, but they fail to include the official languages, this will not help the francophone communities outside Quebec.

However, even if we attract francophone immigrants, but we don't have any reception structures in the communities, be they rural or urban, immigrants from francophone countries will turn to English for health care services and early childhood services or access to employment services, as well as for English as a second language courses. Once they've developed their network in English, it's extremely difficult to bring them back to French.

Therefore, the reception structures must be available from the moment they get off the plane. We need to provide them with a range of services, both in rural regions and urban ones. That is why coordination between rural and urban francophone communities is essential. We must work together because, as is often the case in a region, a population is too small to have duplicate institutions. The federal government really needs to consider the linguistic communities as active partners and put pressure on the provincial governments to include...

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That exists. During our trips across Canada, we met with individuals working in bilingual service centres, in Toronto and other places too. They were welcoming francophones and helping them to integrate into existing networks. There are networks. As I said, I just announced $700 million for immigrants coming to Ontario. The goal is to help them better integrate our official language minority communities.

[Wilfrid Denis]

That is for Ontario. The question is, though, how are we going to help francophones coming to Manitoba?

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

There are other agreements.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Lemieux.

We will now begin our second round with Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I'm happy to see that we have a rich friend here. He gave $7 million.

I was the Minister of Immigration. What you have said, we have heard. Personally, and with all due respect, Mr. Denis, I don't share your pessimism. We signed agreements with each province in Canada. We made sure, because it was necessary, that those agreements included a clause on bilingualism. To repeat respectfully the words of my friend Jack Jedwab, I will say that demographics are also essential. The reality in the provinces is such that a whole array of programs, such as equalization, have an impact on demographics. We are taking in immigrants to help the francophone communities develop. But the situation is becoming much more complex.

I think that, in this regard, the situation of Manitoba is unique. During the federal-provincial-territorial conference, we focused on this issue, exactly the way you have raised it. In Canada, 87% of newcomers go to Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. Some 60% of the population of Toronto was not born in Canada. That is a reality.

I don't want to start talking science fiction or making extremist comments like Yves Beauchemin, according to whom the francophones outside Quebec are the walking dead. However, I would like to address three issues, the first being the legal reality. I fully agree with my colleague Mr. Godin when he says that we need tools in order to keep our entitlements or protect our rights.

Second, I would like you to talk to us about the institutional impact. The Dion plan focused a great deal on early childhood. We knew that, in fact, we had to act while children were young. Furthermore, there is a new reality related to immigration.

My third point concerns the objective of responding to an economic reality while planning for development. I'm not talking about survival. In fact, we have been talking about assimilation for years and years. There's no need to hide our heads in the sand, but we must nevertheless salute the extraordinary contribution of francophones outside Quebec and of Acadians, throughout the country. They have more than a survival instinct. There is something quite exceptional there in this regard. In short, I would like you to talk to me about the economic aspect. There are more population movements due to the economic boom, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan. There are also examples of what is called outsourcing, such as at the Hibernia project.

In light of these factors, do you think that the economic criterion is also a way to assist the development of francophone communities?

We can come back to this if I have more time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have approximately three and a half minutes left.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That's wonderful. You'll have all the time you need to answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Pardon me: this is a five-minute round.

[Prof. Joseph-Yvon Thériault]

I think that the institutional impact is significant. I will put on my professor hat for a few seconds by referring to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who said that the general will, which is the legal dimension, is what remains once all the differences in a society have been eliminated. The will of all citizens is expressed once we have negotiated the differences and policies have been made. In his opinion, one governs with the will of all citizens and not with general will. That's the distinction I make between the legal framework and the political framework. The legal framework may very well be the one in which we operate. I agree that the Dion plan was a step in that direction, but it didn't go far enough. It focused a great deal on immersion programs. That was the focus rather than community institutionalization.

We should remember that the Dion plan made no reference to the culture of francophones outside Quebec, that it made no reference to cultural institutions. That's why I am saying that we need to institutionalize francophone communities. I think that the economic criteria are extremely important, particularly in regions with a strong francophone population. That is where we see problems of economic under-development. In Canada, even in the 1960s and 70s, we never wanted to associate economic development programs with the cultural enhancement of languages. Yet, language is an essential part of the definition itself of Canada. The idea has always been that economic development was a separate occurrence.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Denis.

[Wilfrid Denis]

I fully agree with regard to the legal basis, the constitutional basis for the recognition of rights. The problem, with regard to the legal basis, is that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, 1982, recognizes that francophones outside Quebec have rights, particularly in the area of education. However, that took us 25 years and I don't know how many hundreds or millions of dollars it took to obtain those rights. So, if we include a second sector, this could mean another 25 years of legal battles to clarify what we want. How many communities will we have lost in the meantime? We need to find another way to extend the constitutional legal basis without it taking another 25 years to do so.

I agree with my colleague Mr. Thériault when he talks about economic criteria for the underprivileged regions. However, I come from a region where there is economic development, but the problem is the lack of institutional development. As people come to us, we are incapable of integrating them, because we don't have the institutions we need to do so. Many people are looking for the magic bullet; but we need a multi-pronged approach to enhance the francophone language and culture throughout Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

We will now move on to Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Merci, monsieur le président.

There were a couple of comments I thought were interesting. One was from Mr. Thériault, who said that official bilingualism is essential but not sufficient. I think that's a very good way of putting things. Also, Mr. Jedwab said exogamy is an integral part of how French is carried from one generation to the next, and that households with francophone mothers and anglophone fathers tend to see the francophone language carried through to the next generation. I've seen that in many cases myself, anecdotally speaking.

One of the things that is clear in the statistics is that we have seen a decline in the number of mother-tongue francophones in this country over the last 30 to 40 years. That trend is clear. It's inescapable when you look at the statistics. The other trend that I think is unmistakeable is the increase in the number of Canadians who are recent arrivals or minorities in this country. I think those two changing realities are related to each other, and many would say are colliding.

I think there might be a way to address both of those concerns in a way that's beneficial for both communities. I'm talking about a possible solution that would adopt a more European style of education system in which we would require students, especially students bound for college or university, to know three languages, two of which would be French and English and the third would be the student's choice. It would be a sort of two-plus-one approach to language policy. The federal government could use its spending power to do this by setting up a federal fund of let's say $1,000 per student per year. There are 2.4 million students in the primary and secondary education system in Canada, and this fund would be available to provinces that wanted to utilize it to adopt this policy. I think you would address a number of issues at once. The first is obviously the issue of concern to francophones in this country, which is their declining numbers with respect to the larger population.

Secondly, you'd address the diversity element for newer Canadians who want to retain their mother tongue. You'd address the trade and commerce aspect. I don't think we're taking advantage of the large expatriate populations here, especially with respect to international trade and commerce. I don't think we're leveraging those human assets here in ways that we could in order to be the Phoenicians of the modern world. I think you open yourself up to the other. You open yourself up to a different culture, because language, in my view, is the carrier of culture.

In the context of those statistics, I'm interested to hear what the three panellists think about an idea like that and whether or not this is a potential solution to these demographic trends.