Evidence of meeting #27 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bilingualism.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
There has been no detailed consideration of the ties with the communities, and so forth.
Professor, St. Thomas More College, University of Saskatchewan
There are actually one million francophones outside Quebec. There's a risk.
Professor, University of Ottawa
Obviously, francophones outside Quebec, individuals from these communities and political spokespersons, etc., cannot view Quebec's sovereignty as something that would be to their advantage. Quebec's sovereignty would certainly reduce the political and symbolic place that French occupies throughout Canada and in the long run it would have very harmful effects.
That said, Wilfrid raised an interesting point. The way you put the question appears to indicate that sovereignty would be absolute and that there would be no association between Quebec and Canada that would define a new direction. Therefore, that might modify...
Liberal
Professor, University of Ottawa
However, from a strictly sociological perspective, some say that nothing much would change because things are going badly. We have to say that that is somewhat true west of the Ottawa Valley. What is striking—this is linked to the value attached to French in the Canadian public domain—is that francophones outside Quebec west of the Ottawa Valley coming from Acadia, for example, become assimilated at the same rate as immigrants and Franco-Americans. In other words, the symbolic status of the language does not slow down this immigration.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
No one has referred to the anglophone community in Quebec. There are several members of the anglophone community in my Quebec riding. I sense concern, for example, over some important areas such as access to justice and health. I met some townshippers in the Eastern Townships on Friday night when they were meeting to discuss the challenges they face. In my opinion, the anglophone community in Quebec is facing several challenges, particularly outside Montreal.
Professor, St. Thomas More College, University of Saskatchewan
That is true and I refer to this in my text. Provincial data, averages and so on give us a false picture, especially in Quebec where the Montreal area is so unique. The tendency to maintain English and for immigrants to turn to the English language in Montreal is so strong that it ends up masking what could be happening in more remote areas such as the Gaspé and the Eastern Townships.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Thank you very much, Mr. Denis.
We have three witnesses and several questions. We are nearing the end of our meeting. We will have to try to stick to our schedule as much as possible.
We will now move to the Bloc Québécois, with Mr. Nadeau.
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
We met with Mr. Corbeil who provided us with statistics from the most recent census. At one point, my words were paraphrased and they were compared to those of other individuals who foresee the end of francophone communities. However I don't think we should be in denial. The reality exists and you're saying that the trend is a strong one.
When I was with Ms. Jeannine Séguin, with the Fédération des francophones hors Québec, and previously with Mr. Hubert Gauthier, a document entitled Les héritiers de Lord Durham had just been published. In that document, the 1971 census showed that minority communities were not doing well from an ethno-linguistic perspective. Things aren't much better today. Statistics Canada's graphs—not mine—show that things are not going very well at all.
Why is this trend pointing down rather than up? What solutions should we be proposing? Before proposing anything we need to consider Quebec's place. This province has been part of the Canadian federation since 1867 and that has not slowed down this trend. Quebec can only act within its own territory, within its constitutional prerogatives. It can't build French schools or hospitals elsewhere. Other provinces, for example, have abolished French schools and wanted to close the Montfort Hospital. That's a rather ugly picture.
Brian Mulroney's government did something that was rather extraordinary. He established Canada-community agreements and invested money in communities, something that no other government had done before. When Jean Chrétien's government came into power, it slashed that funding in half. You're saying, however, that support has to be provided beyond legal funding. If we respect francophone minorities, then we have to make extremely significant language accommodations.
The trend remains a strong one. You're familiar with the historical context. Where is the downward pressure coming from? Shall we use science fiction and just say that federal and provincial jurisdictions don't exist? Otherwise this downward trend will continue.
I would like to hear your comments on this, Mr. Denis and Mr. Thériault.
Professor, St. Thomas More College, University of Saskatchewan
You did not have an opportunity to speak earlier, Mr. Jedwab.
Executive Director, Association for Canadian Studies
I'm assuming that you'd like me to speak about anglophones in Quebec. I do not want to delve too deeply into that because I do not think we have enough time today. I could send you information on that.
I understood, rightly or wrongly, that I had been asked to speak about francophones outside Quebec. I'll read my emails to check this but that is how I understood my invitation.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
We only have seven minutes. I know that I don't have much time left, because your answers count as part as of my time.
Where is the downward pressure coming from and what can we do to resolve this?
Executive Director, Association for Canadian Studies
First, one has to be realistic about what is possible. It is unrealistic to think that we can avoid this and bring about a significant increase in the real number of francophones in some areas outside Quebec.
There have been many historical changes. Some of the more significant ones have involved contact between and mixing of francophones and anglophones. I think that this has been the most significant trend or phenomenon in several areas in Canada. Before 1960, when those trends were different and when the church played a more dominant role, there was less contact between...
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Mr. Jedwab, I'm talking about the government, the state. What should it do? The state was there as well as the church in 1960, when French schools were closed. The churches didn't do that.
Executive Director, Association for Canadian Studies
Yes. Fortunately that was changed, historical action was taken to reaffirm the right of minority francophones to their institutions. From an historical perspective, that was a very good step that was taken to improve the situation of francophones.
Professor, University of Ottawa
I did not say that bilingualism was the cause of the assimilation of francophones; I said that bilingualism did not slow down the assimilation of francophones. That's something else. It shows that in fact something is not working.
My position is that it is not working, but one shouldn't be in denial. There is still assimilation, and it has been going on since... There's a big difference between anglophones in Quebec and francophones: the anglophones in Quebec are not being assimilated. The 80-20 trend in Quebec has been the same for 30 or 40 years. Quebec bilingualism shows a positive trend, but this trend is negative outside Quebec because of the minority situation of the French language.
I'm saying that all is not well, but it is not all bad everywhere. If you look closely at the census data, you see that in northern New Brunswick the linguistic reproduction rates are the same as those of French Quebec. If they are lower at certain points in time it is not because of assimilation but because of people leaving. That is why I am saying that something can be done.
In the older more established areas of French Canada, Acadia, Baie Sainte-Marie, northern and eastern Ontario, the smaller rural areas of Manitoba, assimilation isn't as pronounced. Assimilation is the result of immigration toward cities where people haven't learned how to rebuild their societies in that environment.
That is why I'm suggesting that there be less legal recognition from coast to coast and more of a focus on those areas where there is that critical live presence. You can't give a hospital to Caraquet under the Official Languages Act but you can give it that hospital in order to save a francophone region. It's not the same.
The source of renewal for the francophonie outside Quebec lies in the older francophone communities. That is where people speak French in their homes, where they work in French, etc.
The data is somewhat exaggerated because what we see is the exodus. It is because of Toronto, Vancouver and Edmonton that we see 70%. However, in the Acadian Peninsula, in northern New Brunswick and eastern Ontario, the data is not exactly the same.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Thank you, Mr. Thériault.
Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.
We will now continue with Mr. Godin, from the New Democratic Party.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome to you all. Before I begin, I would like to personally thank Mr. Denis for having acknowledged that the report of the Standing Committee of Official Languages was important. People rarely do that. That report contained 38 very important recommendations.
No money was allocated to the action plan in the Conservative government's most recent budget. I feel that this is an insult to official languages. After two years in power, the government tables a budget. However the money for communities will come later. It is now mid-April and there is still no action plan. Bernard Lord's report is two months late. That is a lack of respect for official languages. I wanted to take a minute to get this off my chest.
I do not quite agree with Mr. Thériault when he says that on the legal level we should be focusing on creating institutions. From the outset, if we cannot respect people, then I think we're missing the boat. We won on the legal level. Without legal recourse we wouldn't have had the Montfort Hospital here in Ottawa, and the RCMP would still be answering: “I don't speak French”. Indeed, as of Friday, francophones will no longer have to wait on the side of the road for 20 minutes for a francophone officer to come to speak to them. People feel that it's not worth trying to preserve their language when they can't even get respect from their own governments. I think that both components are necessary and that they go hand in hand.
On the other hand, I agree with you, Mr. Thériault, when you talk about the people who have moved. This comes back to the issue of institutions. When we travelled throughout the country, from Newfoundland to Vancouver, people told us everywhere that they needed good schools, with daycares, so that parents would be encouraged to register their children early rather than hire caregivers who spoke another language, thereby running the risk that their children would no longer speak French by the time they got to school. Those are the kinds of things we learned throughout our travels.
With respect to people leaving the peninsula in order to work in Calgary, I think that if the schools could take in their children, they could manage. I never thought I would see in 2008, in New Brunswick, 350 anglophones demonstrating in the street in front of Fredericton's Legislative Assembly. They made a lot of noise to protest the withdrawal of early immersion and the decision to start immersion as late as in grade 5. I never thought I would receive letters from anglophone parents in my area asking me for help on this.
In many cases, parents are in exogamous relationships and want their children to master both languages. Even those couples made up of two anglophones say that they would like their children to learn French. However, in this case, it's the government who's throwing a monkey wrench into the works and refusing to meet their requests. The only officially bilingual province in Canada has insulted the public to that degree. That is what Shawn Graham's government has just done, with no prior consultations, and based on false data.
Is it not during early childhood that one can start learning another language? I would like to hear Mr. Jedwab on this, because he has known both situations.
Executive Director, Association for Canadian Studies
My children are in an immersion program in Quebec. I think that they have made very good progress in learning a second language. Naturally contact is also important, in other words it is not enough to learn a language in a classroom, you also have to interact with people from that other language group.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Is it better to begin immersion in grade one or wait until grade five?
Executive Director, Association for Canadian Studies
It is better to do it as early as possible. I sent my children to French day care.