Official Languages Committee on May 27th, 2008

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Lacroix.

I have a comment and a question.

My comment is that it seems to me that the English-speaking portion of CBC/Radio-Canada has done a pretty good job in the last number of years in meeting its mandate with respect to highlighting the diversity within Canada. As an avid CBC listener in the Toronto area, whether it be CBC radio or CBC TV, I've noticed in the last five or six years a substantive change in the face of the corporation and in the style of programming, which is good. I think it reflects the changing demographics in many parts of the country.

One area, though, in which I don't see a lot of presence on the English-speaking side of the corporation, in terms of its mandate, is the portion of the mandate that speaks to promoting the linguistic duality of the country. In reverse, I think the opposite is true for the French-speaking portion of Radio-Canada/CBC. It seems to me it is obviously meeting its mandate for highlighting the linguistic duality of the country, but in some respects it is not as aggressive or strong on the promotion of the ever-changing, ever-increasing diversity of our country.

I just make that as a comment.

What I want to focus on in terms of your views is that it seems to me you have many challenges in trying to meet your mandate as a corporation. You have the mandate to linguistic duality. You have the mandate to highlight the country's diversity. You have the mandate to promote a national sense of identity in this country. These are very difficult mandates to meet with limited resources. Obviously you don't have unlimited resources and you have to try to juggle these things around.

I noted in the recent committee report produced out of this committee that we fund your corporation about $33 per capita. Could you tell this committee how that number has fluctuated in the last number of decades in terms of the per capita amount, both in nominal and real terms? If you don't have that, obviously I understand. I'm just asking you right now, so if you don't have them, perhaps you could supply the committee with those numbers.

The second part of that question is could you tell us what other public broadcasters are doing around the world in terms of their funding per capita and how much money they receive to meet their respective mandates?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

I'm happy to hear you are an avid user of our services and listener to our programs. Thank you for that. I hope that doesn't change.

Thank you for bringing up this aspect of our lives, which is an important one. This report you referred to speaks about $33 per capita, and the report of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage even suggests we increase it to $40. There is the funding part, but there's also the MOU part, the memorandum of understanding part, which for me is the key part and the key recommendation coming out of this report. It's not only about dollars. It's about what CBC/Radio-Canada can provide as services and how we can link our services to the priorities of the government and Parliament, as it sees its national broadcaster grow into the 21st century.

On resources, we haven't seen an increase to our base budget since 1973. In constant dollars, if you look at the portion from 1995 to 2004, that means about $150 million less every year. Some of our funds, allocations coming from government, are not indexed to inflation. Every year that is a $25-million hole we have to fill before we start at base zero.

In terms of comparing us to the public broadcasters of the world, we are one of the lowest-funded national public broadcasters in the industrialized world. I don't have the statistics offhand, but I can give you these statistics.

All that is to say that we have a whole bunch of services in an environment that is changing. A lot of people enjoy comparing us to the BBC, for example. The BBC has four times our budget, an $8-billion budget. That gives you an idea. It broadcasts in one language, not two, and in one time zone. We broadcast in five time zones.

When you take all that into consideration, this is a very important challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

At this point in time, we have been through three rounds. I am wondering if some other members are willing to talk. Mr. Coderre has indicated he is willing to talk.

Mr. Coderre, are you willing to go for a fourth round?

Do you want a fourth round?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I didn't speak in the third round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Pardon me, I forgot you, Mr. Godin. This is the third round. Then I'd like to address one issue. I'd like to speak, like Mr. Coderre. We could do an overview.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm still on my third round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Absolutely, Mr. Godin, and I'll give it to you immediately.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You acknowledge that you made a mistake!

Mr. Lacroix, the person I referred to a little earlier was Mr. Clarence LeBreton, who was the representative of the francophones.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Yes, he was a director at CBC/Radio-Canada.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Then he was replaced. By whom? Was it someone from elsewhere in the country, a francophone? I think it's important to have these francophone voices on the board of directors.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. LeBreton was unfortunately replaced before I arrived, and I don't exactly know which person filled which seat on the board of CBC/Radio-Canada, but I'll be pleased to inquire and to forward that information to you.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Please.

You talked about programmers a little earlier. Where do they come from? Is the programming decided in Montreal and Toronto?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

There are programmers in a large number of our sites, because we don't just do national programming; we also do regional programming. People are part of the programming process in each of CBC/Radio-Canada's centres, but the two biggest programming centres are in Toronto and Montreal.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I made that comment because I'm keen on this. Mr. Dubois may not be pleased with me this morning, because I said that the fact the CBC didn't present him wasn't the end of the world. It's not the end of the world that not a single francophone sang on CBC. I think it's even more difficult when Radio-Canada doesn't broadcast francophones across the country. You say it's a matter of perception; I would tell you it's the contrary. When we talk about Tout le monde en parle, Et Dieu créa...Laflaque, that's for Quebec. We could name a number. I don't know many programs that represent the entire country, whereas you sometimes see pan-Canadian programming on the CBC. You see people from Vancouver, Halifax, Fredericton, everywhere. With respect to Radio-Canada, I feel perhaps like my friends from Quebec. I really feel like a francophone outside Quebec. I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Godin, there are 55 months left in my five-year term. I hope to be able to change your perception of Radio-Canada's service delivery.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You know, Mr. Lacroix, we had the news on RDI for an hour back home. Now it's put on here and there and we no longer even see it. That's the decision that was made. Before that, we complained that they cut the news of RDI de l'Atlantique, for example, in favour of any old news from Quebec. Now they can't cut it because we don't have any news at all. We can't complain about that anymore. I just want to pass on the message from the Atlantic to you, because I'm not the only person who feels this way.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I don't have much to add to your comment, but it's duly noted, Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm encouraged to see that you have 55 months left and that you want to change my perception. I'm happy to hear that.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I hope to be able to change your perception during those 55 months. If you invite me back two months before the end of my term, in five years, and you are still a member of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, I hope you'll ask me the question again or that you'll tell me whether I've managed to change your perception or not.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

For example, the program Belle-Baie is seen across the country.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

You see, that's a good example.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You see, that means that there is talent elsewhere.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

There's talent everywhere in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

That completes our third round. We'll now go to a few questions. Mr. Coderre and Mr. Lebel have expressed the wish to speak, and I would also like to reserve a period of questions for myself.

Mr. Coderre, go ahead.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Lacroix, I've been listening to you from the outset, and I must congratulate you for doing a good job of managing this crisis for your vice-president. However, I find it sad that, in 2008, the president of CBC/Radio-Canada has come to tell us that you're more sensitive now and that you're going to act differently in future. That's like a bus driver who tells people to move back. We need a guarantee, not for you to tell us that you'll be more sensitive from now on. Ordinary people expect to get that respect and dignity. I would like you to make a greater commitment. You acknowledged that there was a problem and that it would not reoccur.

You said that independent producers had edited those 44 minutes. When he appeared before the committee, Mr. Stursberg said that it was an editorial. He said he had dealt with the programming and had viewed the 44 minutes. He is the vice-president, and responsibility moves up the line to the boss, that is to say you. You may have missed it this time. Mr. Stursberg said that programming has an editorial side, that is to say that it includes an element of subjectivity. Mr. Stursberg stretched the facts a little, or he wasn't the one who did it, but he assumed it. I assume that, if he assumed it as vice-president, he has a role to play and that can go as far as the president's office.

Can you ensure that, from this moment on, without interfering in programming, we won't be required, in 2008, to make people aware of the importance of respecting linguistic duality?

I can understand why my colleagues say that the regions must be represented. Roch Voisine isn't a Quebecker; he comes from New Brunswick. We hear him and we see him. There's also 1755, Hart Rouge and the others. Even if you have a one-time mandate for a one-time program...

I'm a friend of CBC/Radio-Canada. I agree that we should fund public television, but, if every time we doubt that linguistic duality is being respected, we have to summon... I'd like us to obtain firmer commitments in that direction. I'm fed up with being told that people don't know Claude Dubois and they'll change channels. He's someone who has left his mark on his era and is still leaving his mark on the singing world. A gala like this one makes it so that, even if it's true on the radio, that's fine; I see no difficulty in that. It would be interesting to know the ratings for that gala.

You're saying almost in a veiled way that this won't be on television next year. As a friend of CBC/Radio-Canada, I need a firmer commitment. It's more a question of commitment to linguistic duality than an issue of sensitivity or lack of sensitivity. That's the minimum we should expect.