Official Languages Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[Richard Smith]

Sorry.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Essentially, what I'm hearing you say is that we haven't applied so we've never been turned down, but we think, based on what we heard from others, that we would be turned down if we did apply. Therefore, we are against the program, but we would be supportive of the program if it were set up according to our recommendations.

Am I misreading what you're saying?

[Richard Smith]

Yes. Our bedrock mantra, if you would, is that government shouldn't fund advocacy and shouldn't fund advocacy legislation. One of the reasons is because we don't believe in it. Right now in Quebec, Alliance Quebec is essentially defunct. If the federal government decides not to fund a follow-up organization, we will be happy with that.

We're saying that we wanted to put in an opinion. If it were reformed, then we in turn could support the reform, because we realize we share the country with people who don't have a similar perspective.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

So all of the countries and the United Nations who have complimented Canada for the nature of the court challenges program in applying the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, in soliciting over the course of years and establishing a jurisprudence to support the Charter of Rights and Freedoms of this country, you think are wrong. They're all wrong, those who have applauded the country for setting up such a program. The way it was administered, you basically are against that, because we should not be funding advocacy.

Is that correct?

[Richard Smith]

Yes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

We will now proceed with—

[Richard Smith]

Could I add something?

I only want to say that I think internationally it is also a legitimate point of view that the government shouldn't fund these types of things, that people should be able to raise their own money. It's only recently that the problems with the program have been made public.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Smith, and Mr. Bélanger.

You'll have plenty of time, since you are our only witness.

[Richard Smith]

Fair enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I'll now proceed with Monsieur Gravel of the Bloc Québécois.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm new to this committee. Mr. Petit says he is new when he has been on the committee for a year. But I am really a very recent member. I have just started here.

I read carefully your presentation entitled “Anglos need a French education”. Earlier, you spoke about the creation of integrated schools. Since I'm not aware of that, I was wondering whether these integrated schools existed elsewhere in Canada—that is schools where both English and French are present. Are there any such schools?

[Richard Smith]

With the exception of private schools.... In other provinces, francophones are entitled to their own school system, but our opinion is that the English situation in Quebec is unique in Canada, because francophones outside the province who have separate schools often live in an overwhelmingly anglophone environment. That helps them to learn English.

I grew up in Montreal, and I don't speak enough French to get a lot of jobs in Quebec. Most of the people I grew up with have left the province because they were somewhat bilingual but not competitively bilingual to be able to work in Montreal.

So this is a unique situation where even though we're a minority language in Quebec, there's often not enough French in our daily lives to make us competitively bilingual.

So yes, francophones can have separate schools. We're not advocating integrated schools for francophones outside Quebec, because their reality is very different from ours. Ours is a unique situation, specific to Quebec.

That's why we're the only official language group advocating some kind of integration of anglophone students with francophone students.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do you not think that the reason there are French and English school boards in Quebec is precisely to protect the anglophone minority? If there was only one school board for both francophones and anglophones, would there not be a danger of assimilation? Is this system not a way of protecting the minority anglophone community in Quebec?

Anglophones in Quebec are very well protected by the province, by the francophone majority, at least they are in my view.

Do you not think it is better this way?

[Richard Smith]

My experience is that one of the leading causes of the anglophone diaspora in Quebec are anglophone schools, even the ones that have good immersion programs, because often the message in that institution is that we are a minority and we are under attack. What kind of francophones are you going to meet in an English-speaking school when francophones are not allowed to go to that school by virtue of Bill 101, or the charter of the French language?

You're creating social segregation that could have consequences down the road. I would argue that the anglophone movement in Montreal that talks about partition of Quebec in the event of Quebec's independence is itself an extension of that mindset that finds its seeds in separate English schools.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

At the moment, anglophones cannot attend French schools in Quebec? Is that what you are saying?

[Richard Smith]

No, a lot of.... There are 5,000 anglophones in Quebec—legal anglophone children, or status anglophones. They're allowed to go to English schools, but they choose to go to French schools. That trend is growing.

But some of the parents who have thought of that option have decided against it, and have expressed concern that their children's English ability could be damaged if they went to a program that was exclusively French, where the purpose of the program was to provide mother-tongue French education exclusively. By having an integrated program, they feel they might be assured their kids could also have competency in English, but would be in a milieu of going to school with actual francophones, whom they would befriend, and would have a better chance of speaking French with native-speaking francophones than speaking French with other English kids, which often results in strange accents and vocabularies.

So they're open to—Some people are afraid, but many are doing it, yes.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'm having trouble understanding what the school would be like. What would it look like and which language would have priority? I'm having a great deal of difficulty imagining this.

Francophones take English immersion in French schools in Quebec. There are such programs.

[Some Hon. Members]

No.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes, there are some programs of this type. One of my friends is teaching English in Saint-Lin. There is an immersion program for children in grade 6, and it is in English only.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

That is just for grade 6.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes, I know, but this program does exist.

So there are immersion programs. Why would they not exist for anglophones? There must be immersion courses in French for anglophones, whether in grade 5 or grade 6. Why not promote that idea instead?

I don't understand what this integrated school would be like. I cannot imagine it.

Quebec francophones are in the minority in Canada. French must be protected, and we have Bill 101 to do that. It is important that our language be protected. In addition, the anglophone community is very well protected in Quebec—at least it is in my opinion. It is certainly better protected than the official language minority communities elsewhere.

I'm having trouble understanding what an integrated school would be like and which language would have priority there. I don't know how this would work.

[Richard Smith]

We have written in our article in the Gazette--which has been translated into French—that it would be mostly in French, but with strong second language schooling in English. Our idea is that by segregating these people, you are asking for future problems down the road. Even now, we still see it with younger anglophones; there is still the suspicion of francophones, even though they are more bilingual than the previous generation. Often these separate institutions give rise to feelings of opposition to an integrated Montreal. They want separate suburbs, and eventually, in the event of independence, they would want a line creating a new province in Canada out of the old province of Quebec.

I mean, I don't support the partition of Quebec--don't get me wrong--but I am saying that I think it's a social consequence of this unnecessary segregation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Gravel.

We will now continue with Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am really a bit disappointed with your position. Let me tell you why.

As far as schools are concerned, two months ago, Justin Trudeau tried the same thing in Saint John, New Brunswick, and he nearly got a spanking. It simply does not work. It did not work in New Brunswick. That is why we have also, amongst other things, used the Court Challenges Program. The program was used in Prince Edward Island in the fight for French schools.

It is just normal, and I do not want to offend anyone, but if there are 10 people in a room with no interpretation services, and of that number there are 9 francophones and 1 anglophone, everyone will speak English.

This is what happened in the past: it works in the classroom, but not in the schoolyard, because English dominates and French always loses out. That will not change in the future.

That is why we fought so hard in our province. It is unthinkable that there would be classes with both anglophones and francophones in New Brunswick. That is why we have immersion schools. Parents who want their children to learn both languages send them to immersion schools. That is where they learn their second language.

It just does not work. I believe you are promoting something which will not work and which will not be accepted. That has already been proven. It is not as if it has not been tried before.

If that was attempted in Quebec, it would mean that in Alberta, with its francophone minority, English and French schools would be created and anglophones would be forced to go to French schools. Just imagine! It is the same thing. Given the fact that there are now many francophones from New Brunswick in “Fort Make Money”, it would mean that French schools would have to be shared with anglophones. I do not know if anglophones would be very happy with that.

But let's talk about the Court Challenges Program. Let me explain to you the reason for such a program's existence: when minorities believe that their charter rights have been violated, they can take their case to the Supreme Court with the help of the program. So it is not just communities which can do this.

In my riding, Ms. Paulin was stopped by the RCMP close to Saint John in New Brunswick, in Fredericton. The RCMP officer who had stopped her did not speak French. Ms. Paulin took her case to the Supreme Court. Ultimately, with the help of money from the Court Challenges Program, the case was settled out of court, and from now on, these services must be offered in both of New Brunswick's official languages.

The reason there are French schools on Prince Edward Island is because of the Court Challenges Program.

Sometimes, it all starts with one person, and not always with organizations which have over 300 members. Ordinary citizens who believe their rights have been violated, can take advantage of this program. So, ultimately, everyone can benefit from it. It is not up to the government to say that it is always a third party. That is not what the Court Challenges Program is all about; it is there to see that justice is done.

I have often gone to Montreal to speak with people and even with anglophones. Anglophone Quebec has its own schools and perhaps even the best university in Canada, McGill.