Evidence of meeting #6 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Through you, Mr. Chair, Mr. Smith proposes an integrated schooling system as a way to address some of the problems with education in Montreal and in Quebec. Perhaps there's another option now, and I'd like to ask him about that.
Perhaps instead of having that approach, the other approach would be to say to school boards across the country to adopt this policy that I've been researching, to adopt the policy of trilingualism, to say “Okay, two of the three official languages must be French and English, and the third one is the student's choice”. I know in Montreal more and more students are taking up Spanish as their third choice.
So as a way to address some of the problems that you have identified, you would say that in order to graduate, every student graduating from CEGEP or from a high school would be required to know three languages, two of which must be French and English and the third would be their choice. It might be, if they're into classics, Latin or Greek. If they're into biblical studies, it could be Aramaic or Hebrew. If they're aboriginal, it could be a native tongue. If they're interested in an international commerce degree or pursuing international trade, it could be Spanish or Chinese or the like.
This could be a different way of addressing some of the problems you've identified and in a way that could be constitutionally consistent with some of the charter issues you've identified with respect to the different schooling systems along linguistic lines, but at the same time overcoming this lack of interaction between the solitudes, so to speak.
I'm interested in hearing Mr. Smith's comments on this, Mr. Chair.
10:30 a.m.
Vice-President, Greater Quebec Movement
Sure, obviously instruction need not be restricted only to the two official languages.
I just recently came back from living in Japan for seven years. It's become a smaller world. The chances of everyone's children here living and working in another country increase every year, so if they know another language.... I certainly would have benefited from having some background in Japanese before I actually moved there.
So that would be great, sure, but when we raise these concerns about French and English...because it's a little embarrassing when, at this late date, our young people, although more bilingual, are not....
My parents could speak French hardly at all. My father was a real estate agent with Montreal Trust. He was number one in Quebec the year he died, number two in Canada. He could not order dinner in French. When he was a young man and he had French Canadian friends—in those days it was “French Canadians”—he would talk to them always in English. There was an assumption that it was the common language. That changed, and we're still not equipped to deal with it in our own place.
I had tremendous professional problems in Montreal the last time I lived there, in the late nineties. I couldn't progress. That's why I went into English-speaking language things. It's my home town. My family goes back in Quebec to the 1830s. But we are not equipped to deal with French as a business language. Irrespective of whether it should be forced or not, we're not prepared to deal with that, and today, still so many people leave.
10:35 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
My question, though, or the point I'm making with you, is that you've said the solution is an integrated school board, but at the same time you acknowledge, in discussions with jurists, that this may not be constitutionally possible.
10:35 a.m.
Vice-President, Greater Quebec Movement
Please keep in mind that we got a call a few days ago to present, so I used an article that talks about the principle of integration. I don't want to be overly focused on the vehicle for integration.
This could be done many ways. Simply, I've met with the people who've run some of the French school boards in Montreal, and we could have a school jointly managed by a francophone board and an anglophone board.
The principle isn't the structure. The principle is how can we get kids, especially the kids in Montreal, who share the same neighbourhoods and often the same school grounds, to share the same classrooms? And why can't they share the same classrooms? That's the question I put to you.
10:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Thank you, Mr. Smith.
Honour to whom honour is due: Mr. Ménard has the floor.
10:35 a.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, you are most kind.
Mr. Smith, I want to join my colleagues in welcoming you to this committee.
As I listened to you speak, I wondered if your own personal history would have taken a different turn had your father purchased a home in Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, where you would have truly experienced immersion in a neighbourhood that may not be exclusively francophone, but certainly is to a large degree. I do not exclude this possibility for the future. You know that rental availability in Montreal East is good, and you're always welcome.
There are two things about your testimony I find disturbing. First, I agree with Mr. Mauril Bélanger. The Court Challenges Program enjoyed a high degree of autonomy, precisely because the board of directors was highly autonomous. Of course, this does not exclude the program from the process of accountability, as it is publicly funded; nonetheless, the program is highly autonomous. The program sought to promote the quality and rights of citizens living in a minority situation. In addition, nothing prevents anglophone minorities in Quebec from making applications for future funding.
That being said, I understand that there is a basic principle driving you. You are saying that no public funds should be set aside for an issue such as language promotion. Your association is entitled to its opinion. Ms. Folco is right in saying that it isn't possible to give both French and English equal status in North America. Had this program not existed, communities, and in particular, French-speaking communities outside Quebec, would never have enjoyed some of the successes they have had.
There is one aspect of your personal history that I find even more troubling, which is what I am trying to understand. Like you, I am not convinced that the solution lies in placing both francophones and anglophones in common linguistic structures. I don't think this would be desirable. Notwithstanding this, in the neighbourhood of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, in the second half of the school year, sixth-grade pupils have the option of studying in an intensive English immersion program. English, math, humanities, and other subjects are taught in English, and these young people have a very good experience. We want people to be bilingual. Mr. Chong talked about having a third language. This is possible for the most talented among us, but mastery of two languages is already quite a challenge.
One thing about your personal history is bothersome to me. I am trying to understand, and to do so with all due respect to you as a citizen. It would seem that there are several possibilities for people living in Montreal to become fully immersed. Frankly, I do not see how you could have missed out on opportunities to learn French. If one were to leave the West Island or downtown Montreal, and go for a stroll in other neighbourhoods, it would be easy to become involved in community volunteer programs, for instance. You certainly have a lot to offer, and people could certainly benefit from your services. I find it disturbing that you are telling this committee that after having lived many years in Montreal, you had little opportunity to become accustomed to French. I am sorry to hear that, although one can choose to be unilingual; there is no constitutional obligation to be bilingual.
In terms of becoming fluent in a second language, can you acknowledge that in a major city such as Montreal, there are fair chances to do so, and one need not resort to integrating schools?
In addition, are you willing to consider that the Court Challenges Program was an autonomous and worthwhile program, from an objective standpoint, one whose reports are available? Would you also be willing to consider that an association such as yours could possibly benefit from such a program?
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
10:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Greater Quebec Movement
Okay.
I'm not advocating throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I've come to you with a proposal. Based on what we've seen with the program in the past, yes, it has brought some favourable judgments that have benefited the English community, but we think there are problems.
Being able to raise some of its money, and it would be matched, is a way to show that there is some accountability to that community, it shows that there is some support in that community, and it creates a level playing field for different groups that might be competing on a particular issue within that community.
Very briefly, I'm not really anglophone as much as I'm Irish. I'm a citizen of Ireland. My family came here in the 1830s and were in Huntingdon, Quebec.
My great-grandmothers—because in those days we were Catholic, and that meant something—went to schools with French Catholics. My great-grandmothers were fluently bilingual.
But my grandparents came to Montreal, and my grandparents became the first unilingual anglophone generation. And then my parents subsequently went to English Catholic schools, because we had enough critical mass of English Catholics, or Irish Catholics, to have our own schools in English. That began the anglicization of us, the Irish community.
You know, Pierre-Marc Johnson is my distant cousin. There only reason there is—
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
We will now hear from the next witness.
Unfortunately, your time is up.
10:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Greater Quebec Movement
My point is that we used to have some integrated Catholic institutions. Then we had enough English Catholics to have separate Catholic English institutions, and you've seen the results. I am the result.
I grew up in the town of Mount Royal. When I was a kid, it was a mostly an English-speaking neighbourhood. Now it's more mixed.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
10:40 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
This may be the answer. I carry the name Godin from my father, but my mother's name was Power. They came from an Irish family and they were Catholic. The solution they had was that one of them married a French person: they became bilingual.
But maybe it's too late for you.
When you went to Japan, did you learn Japanese?
10:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Greater Quebec Movement
Well, I have. That's the thing. I'm a graduate of a Quebec high school. I passed the French leaving exams, and yet the only reason I can speak as much French as I can—I've lost some after being in Japan—is that I took a year at the Université de Montréal and I spent my own money and time to do it. But the time that really should have been done was when I was young, and it was improperly done.
I didn't have francophones in my world. I learned a little bit of Greek and I learned Yiddish, because those were the kids I went to school with. Francophones were on the other side of the town of Mount Royal in their own school. I didn't meet them until much later in life. My friends were my school friends, which I'm sure is the case for most people around this table. When you're a kid, your friends are from school.
10:40 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
But you did not lose your mother-tongue language, though. You kept your English as much as you wanted.
For us as francophones, the fight we had at that time was to keep our mother-tongue language. That's how, through the court challenge, we got....
I don't have any more questions.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Thank you.
We are now ending the second round. So at this point in time—
10:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Yes, and we have to leave. There is a committee coming.
There is one last question from Mr. Bélanger. If Mr. Bélanger would proceed, we could then thank our witness.
10:45 a.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Certainly.
I'd like recommend a book to Mr. Smith entitled D’un obstacle à l’autre : vers le Conseil scolaire de langue française, written by Ms. Odile Gérin. The book talks about 40 years of steady and sustained efforts made by francophones living in Ontario to obtain its homogeneous school boards.
10:45 a.m.
Conservative