Official Languages Committee on March 26th, 2009

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Ms. Poirier, Mr. Dulude and Mr. Rainville.

We are studying the fact that the federal public service has a duty to ensure that government employees are bilingual. We thought of universities as the place where you have to go to earn a degree, to be able to apply for a federal government position and eventually to get a position.

My question comes in the wake of some thoughts shared with some of your colleagues. I would like to know what you think about the idea of inviting people whose first language is English to study in a university environment where the first language is French—in Quebec, for example, in a francophone environment—so that those people actually become bilingual. That method might perhaps be more effective than federal government grants to universities that take that money—and I understand why—to create programs that are too often worthless. We saw an example of that in certain universities in British Columbia, where the quality of French is very poor. People who took those courses, and whose first language was French, were extremely disappointed.

My question is for all the witnesses.

[Luc Rainville]

The entire issue of renewal of the Canadian public service is a considerable concern for current senior officials. The Association of Universities, which represents all Canadian universities, has met with the clerk of the Privy Council on a number of occasions, at the clerk's request. He gave us the same message as you, Mr. Nadeau: that the public service must be renewed and in such a way that it is functional in both languages. He asked us whether we could contribute to that effort. The presidents responded to Mr. Lynch saying that they were more than ready to help him meet the challenge of public service renewal. They told him that one of the ways of doing so was to urge students to learn the other official language. That can be done in many ways.

To go back to your example, I think that establishing interprovincial mobility programs enabling students from Brandon, Manitoba, to go and take courses in Trois-Rivières for a semester or a full year as part of a program comparable or similar to their own and then recognizing those studies would be a major event in the history of university education in Canada. That would be magnificent. That already happens internationally. For example, a student from McGill can go and spend a year at the Université de Bordeaux in France. However, if that exchange is possible between McGill and Bordeaux, why wouldn't it be between Brandon and Trois-Rivières, between the Université Laval and UBC or between Simon Fraser University and the Université de Moncton? Everything is possible. I think that's a very good way to operate. However, as we were saying, universities do not receive funding for these mobility programs. When a young student leaves for three months or a year, that represents costs. There are also costs to administer the program. It's all well and good to say that we have an agreement with a given university, but you still have to manage the mobility program.

All that's possible. That would definitely help students acquire knowledge of the language, but knowing the language isn't enough. You also have to immerse yourself in a reality. That would be the case, for example, of a student who left Brandon to go to Trois-Rivières. That would be a completely different experience from the experience of taking French courses or courses in French in Brandon, Winnipeg or elsewhere.

[André Dulude]

I'm going to add something to Luc's remarks.

There's currently a mobility program between Simon Fraser University and the Université Laval at the third year level. It's a great, unique model that works well, and it could be applied elsewhere.

[Marielle Poirier]

The program depends on the choices of the government in power. Currently, as a francophone CEGEP, I don't have access to that funding to send my students outside the country, to another francophone country. You have to understand that anywhere beyond Quebec's borders is considered foreign as regards eligibility for mobility programs. You absolutely have to send them to study in a country where the majority language is other than French. There are nevertheless certain measures that promote bilingualism.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I normally sit over there, not here. Since it's my turn, I'm going to speak right now. I'm going to leave the chair and sit over there.

I want to tell you that Shippagan is not on foreign soil. We're next door to Gaspé; you need only cross the river.

[Marielle Poirier]

It's a very beautiful region. I lived in eastern New Brunswick for five years.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Are the institutions comfortable with having two groups? I spoke with a group of students from the CASA and the University of New Brunswick at St. John. They told me that the second language isn't even promoted and that no one at the university tells them how important it is. Is there a deficiency in that regard?

Last week, the committee was wondering whether the government would go to the universities and tell them that the people it hires need to speak both languages. Yesterday, those students said that they would like to learn the other language, but that there weren't any programs for it, that they weren't urged to learn it. I'd like to hear what you have to say on that subject.

[André Dulude]

The public service has a deputy minister university champion program. A deputy minister is assigned to a university and is responsible for promoting bilingualism on the campus, in the public service and in Canada. That program was established by the Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Kevin Lynch.

I went through that program, and it works very well. The message has been sent to York University, Glendon College and Ryerson University. It is up to every deputy minister responsible for a university to promote bilingualism.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

But are they doing it?

[André Dulude]

Are you asking me whether the deputy ministers are doing it?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Yes.

[André Dulude]

Of course, the deputy ministers leave Ottawa and go and preach bilingualism on the campuses.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

They don't seem to be preaching a lot; people say they don't hear them.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I don't think it's practical for the Chair to ask those kinds of questions when he is seated there. I would be more comfortable if he were there in order to respect the balance.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We won't waste any time discussing that. I know that bothers the Conservatives a little.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

No, but Ms. Zarac is here and she—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm going to ask the Vice-Chair to take my place, please.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

If the chair makes a difference, it doesn't trouble me to change places.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

That's fine. Thank you, Ms. Zarac.

She can chair what's left of the meeting.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lise Zarac]

Mr. Godin, go ahead please.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Good morning once again. I'll introduce myself. I am Yvon Godin, member for the NDP. I am currently a member of the committee, not its vice-chair.

I'd like to continue what I was saying. Yesterday evening, the students said they hadn't heard about the promotion of bilingualism. It's as though it wasn't a need. Students from Nova Scotia, Fredericton and St. John said the same thing.

You who represent the universities and colleges, what do you intend to say about that?

[Luc Rainville]

It's possible that people don't hear about the objective of promoting bilingualism everywhere, on all floors, between all the walls of the university. However, some people are more sensitive to the issue than others. You also have to make students and professors responsible for promoting bilingualism. Simply, in most of our universities, professors are bilingual, francophile or anglophile. In some programs, it's much more important than in others. It's also up to students to say that they are making a personal commitment to become bilingual. To do that, by being at a university, let's say in St. John, New Brunswick—I'm using the Brandon expression—it's important for every individual, student or professor to take responsibility for making promotional efforts.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I don't agree, Mr. Rainville, because the institutions are there to provide education and leadership. It's not the responsibility of individuals who don't know what's waiting for them in life. We need education in life. It's up to the institutions to provide it. I am forced to disagree with you. What is the university or college doing about the poor students who arrive at the university and don't know what's waiting for them? It's up to you to do that promotion, to show them how important the issue is?

[André Dulude]

Where we can play a role, Mr. Godin, is really by encouraging presidents to promote this message. I believe that Allan Rock is doing that very well at the University of Ottawa. I think it's being done very well at UBC, with Stephen Toope, who is perfectly bilingual. It's being done at a number of universities. I entirely agree with you that more must be done and that it must start at the top. It starts with leadership and moves downward. Mr. Rainville said that, as regards the students, it had to come from below. I'm also telling you that it has to move downward, that it must come from the top. It's a matter of leadership. We at the AUCC don't have any resources. We rely on our members' dues. We can nevertheless speak out and encourage our 94 presidents to get out and talk to their communities, student communities first, and to promote this great message which is the message of bilingualism in Canada.