Official Languages Committee on March 26th, 2009

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You can probably come back when the economic situation is different.

[André Dulude]

No, not necessarily. However, we will take the economic situation into account.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you. Mr. Chong, go ahead please.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see the witnesses here today.

My question is directed to the Universities and Colleges of Canada. It seems to me that admission requirements to Canadian undergraduate programs with respect to French have been relaxed over the last number of years. Is this a correct impression?

[André Dulude]

There used to be some admission requirements at the University of Ottawa, for example. They have been relaxed in some institutions where there were admission requirements.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

At the same time, I have the impression that graduation requirements from arts and science programs with respect to having the second language also have been relaxed in the last number of years. You used to have to have knowledge of a second language to enter a graduate degree program. Is that also a correct impression?

[André Dulude]

It varies from one program to another. Maybe “relaxed” is a strong word, but it has decreased.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

At the same time, Statistics Canada has noted that for that 10-year period from 1996 to 2006 the number of bilingual high school students in this country has declined from about 23% or so to about 22%, so in some respects we were going in the wrong direction over that 10-year period.

We have to think these three things are somehow related: the number of bilingual high school students who are coming out of our country's public schools is declining; the admission requirements with respect to French are being relaxed; and graduation requirements with respect to a second language for entry into graduate programs are being somewhat relaxed. It seems to me that is all part of this same overall trend, which is a de-emphasis of the knowledge of a second language and a de-emphasis of a requirement for French.

Is this of concern to the association, and if it is, what sort of work is being done or what discussions are being had to take a look at this and address this?

[André Dulude]

The study by the Commissioner of Official Languages has been mentioned. It could be part of it. The association is working with the commissioner, as you know. We are preparing the advisory board for the study, and we'll see from there, but we certainly hear you.

Again, it is a matter of financial resources. To ask universities to come up with such requirements would mean that some investment would have to be made.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Perhaps, Mr. Chair, Ms. Poirier could provide some comments on this as well.

[Marielle Poirier]

I'm reacting to my colleague who was saying it's a question of resources. I don't agree. I think it's a question of choice. Are you committed to this? We have a responsibility. I will wear my hat as the CEO of a college, and I think we have a responsibility. We, after all, with our board, decide on what the priorities will be in terms of the use of the funds that are allotted to us. To me, if more people had this commitment to what is a major--my words are not okay, but Canada is a bilingual country. There are two founding languages in Canada, so we should have that obligation if we are heads of teaching institutions. We should feel it is our responsibility to make the appropriate choices.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

I'll add a final point, just briefly.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to confirm what Mr. Dulude mentioned, that the public servants at the Privy Council Office use French. In my opinion, when I was at the Privy Council Office, they used French more than English.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

I don't believe it was that, sir. It was more a question of all the departments. We're not asking questions about your department, and we understand the importance you attach to respect for Canada's two official languages.

Now we'll go to Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Rainville, earlier, when I asked my question about the imbalance, I believe you had something to add.

[Luc Rainville]

I simply wanted to say that I wouldn't offer an opinion on the imbalance, but Mr. Dulude mentioned a cash transfer of $3.235 billion in 2008-2009 for what's called the Canada Social Transfer. Obviously, the Canada Social Transfer goes to assistance for early childhood, postsecondary education and social programs. Those amounts are paid to each of the provinces based on the agreements.

For example, for postsecondary education, the total amount was $3.2 billion. It must be clearly understood that postsecondary education means the college as well as university levels and that the systems vary somewhat from province to province. For example, earlier we were talking with Mr. Petit about the specific case of Quebec, where postsecondary education represents a whole. In Quebec, since the pre-university level is included in the college level, a portion of the funding or of the larger Canada Social Transfer goes to the CEGEP sector. We're talking about a 60-40 proportion in Quebec, in round figures: 60% to the universities and 40% to the colleges to cover the pre-university portion of pre-university college education.

In the rest of Canada, precisely because the systems are different, we're talking about a 70-30 ratio instead. So we take that into account.

In response to Mr. Petit, we don't consider the pre-university component as part of our association. These are really two different wholes because they are different education systems. In Quebec, they've chosen to establish a somewhat different system from that of Ontario and British Columbia, and so on.

I simply wanted to clarify those ratios in response to your remarks and that of Mr. Petit.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I'll continue with a question for Mr. Dulude and Mr. Rainville.

What challenges are you facing today? I'm asking you that for the committee's benefit. Are there any specific challenges that we should know about?

[André Dulude]

The challenge is really to do more for second-language learning, to do more for the official language minority communities. We are lucky to be on the ground virtually everywhere. Mr. D'Amours talked about Moncton, but we're also in Saint-Boniface and Saint-Jean, Alberta. There are bilingual universities like the University of Ottawa and Laurentian University in Sudbury. However, we can always do better. We'll continue to do more by working with Mr. Fraser, among others, in the coming days and weeks.

[Luc Rainville]

That's one of the reasons why the AUCC must do more. The AUCC represents 94 universities and colleges, from the smallest to the largest. Our mandate is essentially to defend their interests, which are much more general than that of strictly learning the second language. We are an area of consensus.

That said, the question is very important for some universities. Most of the time, the official languages question arises for institutions operating in a minority setting. I'm thinking of the Université de Moncton and its two campuses, apart from the Moncton campus, the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface and the Université Sainte-Anne, in Nova Scotia.

Those institutions decided to join forces to create the Association des universités de la francophonie canadienne, the AUFC. At the start of your study, you heard the comments by François Charbonneau. That association's mandate is essentially to see that the interests of its members are protected and that there is a response to the needs of a small group within the universities.

The AUCC is proud to say that it contributed to the founding of that organization. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when those universities wanted to join forces, a subgroup of our association helped them do so. We provided them with start-up financing. It obviously wasn't much, but it enabled them to set up their association and get prepared. The AUFC has been in existence for nearly 25 years and it defends its specific interests quite well.

We must also meet the needs of Toronto, UBC and Moncton in other areas. We really are a forum for consensus. The issue of language learning and protection for Canadian bilingualism is important because we are a good citizen. We try to do this in various ways. Earlier André mentioned Mr. Toope, who is perfectly bilingual, as well as Mr. Rock. There is an increasing number of bilingual presidents, which will have an effect on every campus. And we're counting on that.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Now we'll start our final round.

Ms. Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you. As you said so well, Mr. Rainville, linguistic duality is central to Canada and it is important to preserve it. That is why our government has made a commitment in that regard. Our Roadmap provides for $240 million more than what was provided under the Dion Plan. That's our commitment to linguistic duality, and we're proud of it. I simply wanted to emphasize that.

Apart from the federal government's measures, I want to know what more we could do. Some students who enter the labour market aren't completely ready. You suggested some initiatives, such as the mobility program. However, we haven't really talked about standards, but other witnesses have.

Could we develop examinations for students to determine their ability to speak and write in French?

[Luc Rainville]

All I can tell you on behalf of the members of our association is that every university is responsible for establishing its admission and graduation criteria. It prepares the curriculum necessary for earning a diploma. That's a question that could be put to our presidents, to our senates and our academic councils.

One of the university's fundamental values is precisely university and academic freedom. Even as an association, I couldn't offer a position on that. It's not a bad idea. We'll simply have to examine that question with the academic councils and university senates of those institutions. As André said, the example will start at the top and flow downward; it can also start at the bottom and move up. If pressure is brought to bear on the bottom and that meets a need, people will meet. It's possible to do that. In a number of programs, knowledge of the other official language is necessary. We're talking about programs, not an institution or establishment in general.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Ms. Poirier, I'd like to know what, in your view, would happen if criteria were applied.

[Marielle Poirier]

We are demanding that standards be enforced at the end of mandatory study, that is to say at the end of the secondary level. We are now seeking that for the end of college. We may consider that that is partly the case at the secondary level since there is a departmental exam to assess students' language levels at the end of secondary school. Incidentally, a pass mark on that exam is necessary for students to be admitted to college. The problem is with the universities.

As I was saying, when we compare ourselves with the universities, we often lament our colleges' lack of independence. To all intents and purposes, the government can impose what it wants on us, and we have to follow. We are 85% funded out of public money, and, in that respect, we are held to a very strict accountability. The problem remains unchanged for the universities. That brings me back to the answer I gave earlier. We have to convince our institutional heads that this is a sensible choice to make and that it concerns as much the budget as the prioritization of programming and graduation requirements.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you. I encourage you to talk about it more. That may be another initiative. Are there any others? We really want to offer our help. Your ideas are very good. I'm going to ask you—and you have another chance to speak—if you have any other ideas concerning the way we can help students.

[André Dulude]

I mentioned the mobility program. You've also discussed that. Other ideas will come out of Mr. Fraser's work in a few weeks. I think we're going to focus on that. I want to briefly go back to standards. There's obviously work to do with the education departments of all the provinces, not simply Quebec's. It should not be forgotten that there is an association of provinces in education. These people have a forum, and that could be a good place to launch this discussion. We have to ensure we are partners with the provinces in the context of that kind of discussion.