Official Languages Committee on April 30th, 2009

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, everyone. I'm going to continue somewhat along the same lines as Mr. D'Amours. I'm a teacher. I was trained at the University of Ottawa. I taught in Saskatchewan, Quebec and Ontario. Today, they first train the teachers, and the subject matter comes second. I think that paradigm has to change.

My subjects were French and history, but I had to teach a number of others as well. In that kind of situation, you wind up adjusting because you want the job. School managements carry out orders that come from their school boards. How management is viewed varies from province to province, but every student still represents $5,400. At least that was the case at the time. So they want to attract students to their own schools and to offer the course. You can't blame a school principal for obeying the rules set for him by the department of education and the school boards. You people are probably in the best position to influence the department of education.

I'd like you to give me your opinion on the following hypothesis that I've come up with. I won't make a theory out of this, even though I'd like to. The best way to train anglophones so that they become bilingual is to enrol them at a university where French is the first language and which is established in a community where French is also the first language.

In that way, wouldn't we resolve, in large part, the debate we're having today? I'm going to put that question to Ms. Best, Mr. Maher and other colleagues.

[Janice Best]

I completely agree: nothing replaces a long-term language stay. You really have to be in a francophone environment where there are no anglophones with whom you're tempted to speak.

When they return, we've noticed that our students who have spent a year in France have really made incredible progress. Comparing them to our students who have not made the effort to go to France, we have seen that their level is completely different. I myself have had that experience: this spring, I spent a week in France with two of my students. It was the first time they had been with people who didn't speak any English at all. They were really surprised that they could not make themselves understood by using expressions that worked in their classroom and which are often patterned on English.

I think that finding yourself opposite someone who doesn't understand and being forced to find the right word in French is the method that works.

[Dan Maher]

I completely agree with my colleague: these long-term language stays have incredible value. I did my studies, a long time ago, at the Memorial University of Newfoundland. It required a language stay of at least one semester and preferably one year. So the students' level of French was very good. Applying that requirement at our universities and finding a way to fund these stays so that they aren't just accessible to students who are well to do would be a considerable asset.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Ipperciel?

[Donald Ipperciel]

I entirely agree. I would add perhaps that this often comes as a cold shower, but that's not necessary. Proceeding gradually is a good idea. At the campus, a lot of francophone students from Quebec eventually want to study in English at the University of Alberta. So they proceed gradually by taking a few courses in French with us, and courses in English.

Conversely, our anglophone students learn French there. They also proceed gradually. They have access to the residence, where they only speak French. Whatever the case may be, this will never replace a trip or complete immersion in a francophone environment.

[Claire Trépanier]

The ideal, Mr. Nadeau, would be for all students to find themselves in francophone environments for more than one year. Based on the model we've selected, students spend two years with us—and we of course offer them language training during that period—and subsequently one year abroad. That year is mandatory as part of the BA program. We've chosen to send them abroad in the third year for all kinds of reasons. When they arrive at university, after grade 12, they are 17 years old and lack maturity. They also need intellectual maturity to take advantage of the experience outside their environment. They come back enriched academically. My colleagues mentioned this phenomenon earlier. The students choose courses that are not offered at home, at their home institution. They take advantage of socio-linguistic enrichment. Language learning is done in an environment. There is cultural enrichment—that goes without saying—and personal enrichment as well. This personal growth occurs only starting at a certain age.

These are the reasons why we have selected this model. We prepare the students very well for what awaits them, that is to say that third year abroad. When they come back, they can use the entire experience they've had in third year in their francophone or francophile community. We see that, to date, our students go back to those francophone environments because the experience has really enriched them. These students have a window on the world. It may be a Canadian francophone environment or, as is the case with us, a European environment.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nadeau.

Ms. Trépanier, this makes us want to go. I think that, if I was younger, I would go study in Vancouver.

Now I'm going to hand over to our parliamentary secretary for Official Languages, Ms. Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much. I'd like to welcome the witnesses as well.

I've noticed in a number of speeches made by our witnesses—and here I'm not just talking about the witnesses here today—that five themes have constantly been coming up.

First, they note deficiencies in basic training. Second, there is a shortage of skilled teachers, as Mr. D'Amours said. Third, they note that student enrolment in second-language courses—and that's generally French—is increasing, but declining on the francophone side. Fourth, most witnesses here today, as well as others, suggest that mobility programs should be implemented. Fifth, there's been much discussion of assessments of French levels.

I would simply like to point out to you that this isn't the first time we've heard this. Other witnesses are making the same suggestions. I'm very interested in the fact that these ideas are coming up again.

I'd like to go back to the question that Mr. Nadeau asked and to ask you whether, in your opinion, anglophones in a minority setting would also do well to study in Quebec. Conversely, would Quebec francophones do well to study in completely anglophone environments? Everyone agrees? That's perfect.

[Claire Trépanier]

That's what we're proposing: we dream of a situation in which young anglophones would come and study French in Vancouver and vice versa. We're talking about mobility. We currently have conventions, agreements, with various European and Quebec universities, but why not imagine pan-Canadian mobility where young people would not only hear the other's language, but would know the other's culture and what Canada as a whole is.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

As an immersion student, I took advantage of the fact that I had francophone friends and that I was in a situation where I could speak French. So I completely agree, but we have a problem. There are consequences for those families that can't send their...

Do you acknowledge that that would be ideal, but that it's not really a reality for everyone here, in Canada? Do we all agree on that point? My parents were quite poor, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to travel far away, but, on the other hand, I took part in exchanges in Quebec.

Ms. Best, you said this is really important, but you also suggested international exchanges. Our universities and our children are increasingly going to China, Japan, and so on, but, if we really want to retain our francophonie, I would like us to choose Quebec first because participants will find advantages there. I agree with you that it's important.

I simply wanted to know whether the other universities have tests like those you set at your institution, Ms. Best. That's really extraordinary. Do the other universities have tests to determine knowledge levels?

You're telling me that's the case at Simon Fraser University. And in Alberta?

[Donald Ipperciel]

In Alberta, we had an in-house test for a number of years. Now we're starting to go to international standards, to international-style tests.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Perfect.

And at the University of Calgary?

[Dan Maher]

We're headed towards that; it's starting to develop. In the past, we only had our in-house standards, as you say.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

You said that these are tests that are used for teachers only. Do you use tests for students?

[Janice Best]

Yes, anyone who wants to take him the TCF, the Test de connaissance du français. It makes it possible to rank a person from level A1, the basic level, to C2, the advanced superior level.

In addition, the Nova Scotia Ministry of Education has a pilot project right now to enable secondary students to obtain the DELF, the Diplôme d'études en langue française, which is based on the same levels.

Like the other universities, we previously had an in-house test that we had developed ourselves, but what drew us to this test is, first, that it is recognized across Europe and, second, that it is corrected in an entirely objective manner. The tests are sent to France and corrected there. So we don't have to worry about any subjectivity with regard to our students.

Our students are really very, very proud to achieve, for example, level B1 on the test, and that that is recognized by the government.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I want to take the test too! I can't wait to see it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Claire Trépanier]

For your information, there is a draft Canadian version of the European common framework. Some Canadian universities and school boards are testing it. So there's a Canadian version of this common frame of reference. That is to say that, from province to province, we'll know what is meant by an A, a B, a C...

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Fantastic!

[Claire Trépanier]

...somewhat like for a public service test.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Is the Public Service Commission of Canada taking part in the process?

[Claire Trépanier]

I don't think so, but the people managing this project are from the University of Ottawa...

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I see.

[Claire Trépanier]

...and it's just next door, so there's no doubt some consultation.