Evidence of meeting #17 for Official Languages in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claire Trépanier  Acting Director, Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, Simon Fraser University
Danielle Arcand  Associate Director, Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, Simon Fraser University
Janice Best  Director, Departement of Languages and Literatures, Acadia University
Donald Ipperciel  Assistant Dean to Research, Saint-Jean Campus, University of Alberta
Dan Maher  Acting Dean, Faculty of Humanities, University of Calgary
Ozouf Amedegnato  Assistant Professor, Department of French, Italian and Spanish, University of Calgary
Robert Perrins  Dean, Faculty of Arts, Acadia University

10:30 a.m.

Director, Departement of Languages and Literatures, Acadia University

Janice Best

I can talk about my department. We have all kinds of teachers who come from everywhere. We have two colleagues from Quebec, one from Belgium, one from Switzerland, one from Haiti and myself. I don't think my department is unique. You find that mix in most French departments across Canada. You hear all kinds of accents.

We have a socio-linguistics course where we study all the various kinds of spoken French. I think we're very sensitive to the importance of making our students understand that there are all kinds of French in the world and that they have to be able to understand all accents, all expressions. We really like studying the various expressions that come from various countries. I don't know whether that answers your question.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

However, you mentioned that some secondary students used English expressions in French. In fact, the world is now a global village and our priority is to have a bilingual Canada, but we're talking about English-Quebec bilingualism. There are differences.

On the other hand, when I was in high school, all the books and courses were in French from France. Perhaps we should set a priority so that our students can travel to Quebec and speak French with Quebeckers. Perhaps we should make a greater effort to get Quebec teachers in our schools from other provinces

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. The five minutes are up.

Are there any comments?

10:35 a.m.

Assistant Dean to Research, Saint-Jean Campus, University of Alberta

Donald Ipperciel

A distinction should be drawn between formal French and social French. From the standpoint of formal French, there's no difference; it's an international French that is used in Quebec, in France and elsewhere. However, social French differs from region to region. The strategy that the Saint-Jean Campus has adopted, for example, is to have students learn social French not in courses, because they learn formal French there, but in various places and programs outside the courses, where they can learn social French.

This is often an emotional French. So it involves small emotional words that you'll often hear among anglophone students when they speak French. They say cool man—in English—because it's an emotional French. I think it's important—you're right—that we “teach” that emotional French, not necessarily as part of the formal courses, but, for example, in the residences, the corridors, at informal meetings, tutorials between anglophones and francophones and so on. So French isn't learned just in the classroom, but also in informal venues.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Mr. Nadeau.

10:35 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm going to answer Borys on the subject of what's called the vernacular, a question of great interest to me. English is spoken in Utah, New England, Scotland and various regions of the world. All those people speak a vernacular language, that is to say they have their own expressions, but there is only one English grammar.

It's the same thing in French. There is only one French grammar, but there are a number of ways of speaking the language. The people of Lac-Saint-Jean, Montreal, the Outaouais, Haiti, Belgium and certain regions of France have their vernacular language. It's an asset.

What is important is to learn the grammar well. When you know your grammar, you can adapt to the work place and to the people you're speaking with. That's what Antonine Maillet is demonstrating when she denies that she has an Acadian accent.

For example, in Quebec French and Acadian French, we say “moé” and “toé”, as they said in the 16th and 17th centuries. They talked about the “roué” and not the “roi”. Things evolve with time. These are vernacular expressions, but there's only one grammar. You can offend people if you tell them that their French or English is not as good as that of others. You have to keep that in mind when you teach French.

Mr. Gravelle talked about teaching and what we call the intermediate learning system. A person who has gone through all the stages of learning another language is in a better position to teach it than another person who already masters the language and who has not gone through all those stages. An anglophone student who has managed to learn French in an immersion program and who subsequently wants to teach it will be more understanding of his students. That concerns language learning.

Mr. Ipperciel cited a figure earlier. I'm torn by it and it's one of the reasons why I'm in politics. It was the number of FL1s, which means French as a first language, in Canada. I don't really like the expression, but it's a reality. People born in a French-language family and culture are being assimilated so that they no longer speak French at all at 17, 22 or 40 years of age, regardless of age.

We've established institutions. I'm thinking of the Faculté Saint-Jean, the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface and the Collège universitaire de Hearst. There comes a time when those institutions can no longer serve their own community, the one for which they were created. Some 27% of the student body at the Faculté Saint-Jean are Franco-Albertans, or FL1s, whether they be Franco-Manitobans, Quebeckers or other francophones.

I think assimilation is a major problem and a cancer as regards non-respect of the French fact across Canada. There are even regions in Quebec where French is losing ground. Come and take a tour of Pontiac. I'm a Nadeau and my mother is a Lalonde, but since people only speak English in my region, our names are pronounced with an English accent. Assimilation is progressing.

You talked about socio-linguistics earlier. When you teach political science and history, do you make your students aware of the fact that it is crucially important to ensure that those who speak French very young not become a pale reflection of those who have assimilated them later on? Is that done?

I don't think the university programs of English Canadians who don't understand Quebec take that fact into account. Moreover, they don't understand the French-language minorities because they don't even know the word “assimilation”.

10:40 a.m.

Associate Director, Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, Simon Fraser University

Danielle Arcand

You have to view that from a historical perspective of the development of francophone communities across the country.

I'm going to cite the example of British Columbia. We've only had a francophone school board in the province for the past 12 years. Now that we have well-established francophone schools and we have the resources to correct... We may have classes with smaller groups, but we can nevertheless justify establishing a school, a class. We're also working systematically on anything relating to identity building.

We're talking about assimilation. In education, assimilation, mobility and the transformation of linguistic environments are problems that are raised very systematically. The socio-linguistic issue is very prominent in education in minority environments. That's what we focus our efforts on.

For example, the ACELF represents teachers of French as a first language regularly and supports them to the extent of its resources. A great deal of effort is being made in that direction.

10:40 a.m.

Director, Departement of Languages and Literatures, Acadia University

Janice Best

I would say the same thing. In Nova Scotia, too, a lot of Acadian families are losing their French. In my classes, I regularly see students whose names seem Acadian to me, d'Entremont or Leblanc, for example. I realize they don't speak French. I find that unfortunate and they do as well.

We have an Acadian school board of francophone schools. So we're trying to make those students proud of their heritage, to teach Acadian history in the schools and to produce French texts that tell that history. There's a lot of interest in the history of the Acadians, their culture, and so on. Through the Acadian school boards, we're trying to reverse the trend toward assimilation, which is really sad.

10:45 a.m.

Assistant Dean to Research, Saint-Jean Campus, University of Alberta

Donald Ipperciel

You're entirely right. The assimilation rate in Alberta is 75%. That means that, if I'm francophone and I have four children, only one of them will remain francophone. Exogamy is probably one of the major reasons for this situation.

However, from a relative standpoint, the figures are declining. Mr. Castonguay, a researcher from Quebec, often emphasizes relative rates. However, you also have to understand that, in absolute figures, the number of francophones has increased in Alberta.

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

That's because of immigration.

10:45 a.m.

Assistant Dean to Research, Saint-Jean Campus, University of Alberta

Donald Ipperciel

It isn't a significant increase. Fortunately, immigration helps not only maintain, but also increase the number of francophones in absolute terms, although, relatively speaking, the number is declining. The assimilation problem is not something that Franco-Albertans have to be aware of; they experience the reality every day. Their brothers and sisters will become anglophones.

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

I'm talking about the anglophones who constitute 67% of your clientele. Are they aware that a cataclysm is happening, what I would call an ethnocide, to the extent that people are losing their culture?

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

It's time that you're killing.

10:45 a.m.

Assistant Dean to Research, Saint-Jean Campus, University of Alberta

Donald Ipperciel

I'll give you an example among many others, the example of the textbooks used in our history courses at Saint-Jean Campus. The Canadian history textbook is based on the perspective of the west and the western francophone community. It's not a textbook written in Quebec, from the Quebec perspective. In that sense, it's entirely suited to this population.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Mr. Amedegnato, go ahead please.

10:45 a.m.

Ozouf Amedegnato Assistant Professor, Department of French, Italian and Spanish, University of Calgary

I hope I can reassure you, but I don't think you necessarily have to panic if you don't find that awareness formally, in instructions, textbooks or texts. It exists in the courses. Regardless of the titles of the courses offered to students, what is done and said in the courses is not necessarily visible. I believe that a lot of my colleagues are aware of the situation and make their students aware of it as well.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Thank you, Mr. Amedegnato.

We're going to conclude the third round with Mr. Jacques Gourde.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to be with you this morning. I don't often have the opportunity to sit on the committee. I'm discovering that certain universities in the anglophone provinces are very competent. I didn't know that there could be such effective programs.

What motivates students to enrol in your universities? They no doubt have a French base since they can't go to you as completely unilingual anglophones. They've no doubt previously had immersion courses or studied in francophone programs at the primary, secondary or pre-university level.

When they arrive at university, what attracts them? Do they come for their professional careers, for the culture or is it a mix of the two? Is it to make a career in the public service or internationally? Do those students speak two, three or four languages?

10:45 a.m.

Director, Departement of Languages and Literatures, Acadia University

Janice Best

We take in two types of students. First we take in those who have studied French in high school and who would like to continue studying it. They have a number of careers in mind, including teaching or a career in politics, tourism or international relations.

We also have beginners, generally international students who have never studied French and who would like to study it because it's one of Canada's official languages. That interests them a great deal. So we have those two types of students who are very pleased to learn French.

I don't know whether I've really answered your question.

10:45 a.m.

Robert Perrins Dean, Faculty of Arts, Acadia University

Another reason they take French is that students are required to take at least one year of a second language to get a bachelor of arts degree at our university. French is overwhelmingly the choice, because they at least have some experience with it in high school; or, as Janice said, there is a recognition that French, as one of our two official languages, is the natural path to take, I think, for most of them.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Okay.

So it's an obligation at Acadia University to do that?

10:50 a.m.

Dean, Faculty of Arts, Acadia University

Robert Perrins

They have to take at least one full year of a second language.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Does that mean one course, or how many?

10:50 a.m.

Dean, Faculty of Arts, Acadia University

Robert Perrins

Two courses, or one course each term.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney

Would that be six credits?