Official Languages Committee on May 5th, 2009

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Chair, on a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lise Zarac]

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Chair, we are here, in committee, to ask the witnesses questions. We asked the witnesses questions, and this is called partisanship.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Chair, how many chairs are there here today? Are there 10 or 1? I am addressing you, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lise Zarac]

Yes, Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We were talking about partisanship. The last time that I chaired the meeting, before I could ask a question, Ms. Glover said that the chair should not be able to ask a question.

Today, the same thing is happening. So there is a double standard here. Madam Chair, with all due respect, you wanted to ask a question as the chair, and that did not seem to pose any problem to Ms. Glover.

Madam Chair, we could also call that partisanship. Alright—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lise Zarac]

I'm going to ask permission to—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I simply want to say that we need a little bit more respect in our committee. I'm in favour of that and I am sure that you would agree with me on that issue.

We are entitled to ask our witnesses whatever questions we want. We are entitled to do this.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lise Zarac]

Indeed, we are entitled to ask questions. And when it is an individual's speaking time, this must be respected.

Mr. Galipeau, once again, the floor is yours.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

If I remember correctly, before I was given the floor to ask questions, you had asked for the agreement of all committee members, and I did not hear any objection at that time, either from the government side or from any of our three opposition party members.

My question is for the officials. It would appear that the renewal of the public service is a priority. How will the official languages be affected by this?

[Michelle d'Auray]

Thank you for your question.

Renewal of the public service is a priority. It is an integral part of the report recently tabled by the clerk. The clerk strongly recommended that this be done and provided clarifications as part of an action plan that every deputy minister had to produce for the fiscal year that has just ended and will have to produce for the current fiscal year.

The place of official languages is an essential component in recruiting, both to ensure service delivery and representation in the public service. If I may, I will quote an excerpt from the clerk's report:

There is also a need to make improvements in recognizing the place of Canada's two official languages in the workplace. This goes beyond representation of francophones and anglophones at all levels of the public service, where in fact we have been quite successful. Rather it means ensuring that we are operating a public service that uses and respects both official languages in the workplace and in services to the public.

So we are talking about the workplace, recruiting and representation. These aspects are an integral part of our recruiting measures in universities, in accordance with what we call talent management within the public service, namely, when we consider potential, development and career training for employees. Official languages are part of the essential criteria considered.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. d'Auray.

What impact has the creation of the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer had on official languages?

[Michelle d'Auray]

The mandate comes from the Treasury Board, as the minister indicated. In my opinion, the repatriation of the policy development and support functions provided to the department and other federal institutions within the Treasury Board Secretariat strengthens my department's ability to support and encourage departments to fulfil their obligations.

We are back in the hub of the department responsible for coordinating policies and programs. In my opinion, our role has been strengthened because we are part of headquarters. We will continue to support the departments and...

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lise Zarac]

Thank you, Ms. d'Auray.

Your time is up, Mr. Galipeau.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I represent the riding of Gatineau, where approximately 6,000 people work for the federal State. So the federal government is an important employer. We are told that francophone public servants—those for whom French is the language spoken at home, the mother tongue—can work in the language spoken at home in their departments. I do not want you to pay any heed to these words, because from one department to the other, from one agency to the other, from one Crown corporation to the other—I realize that the Treasury Board does not cover these groups—, things do not transpire the same way everywhere. We are in the federal capital region, and some people have problems working in their mother tongue. In some instances, they stop communicating in this language because their superiors make absolutely no effort to understand them or do not forward the memos or work notes prepared by these employees. These individuals, however, do live in what is said to be the most bilingual region in Canada.

We need to pay attention when we make such affirmations. You may be generalizing, but in some departments, this is not the case.

Ms. d'Auray, when an employee cannot work in his mother tongue and is dissatisfied, what recourse does he have with his employer, without being penalized?

[Michelle d'Auray]

If I may, I will clarify one point. You said that people find it difficult to work or communicate with their supervisor. I know that we are talking about overall numbers, but the fact remains that 89% of management positions have been designated bilingual and that 94% of these people are perhaps...

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Yes, but Ms. d'Auray, I have read the statistics. This was mentioned in the presentation given by Mr. Toews, who could not remember the figures that he himself had given earlier, with respect to the legislation. It was quite pitiful, thank you very much.

I would like to know what type of recourse is available to a state employee when dealing with the employer, namely the Treasury Board, when he wants to work in French but is made to feel uncomfortable doing so, and obstacles are put up. I am referring to people working either in Gatineau or in Ottawa.

[Michelle d'Auray]

First of all, employees can appeal to the person responsible for official languages in their department and indicate that their supervisor is not fulfilling his obligations. They can ask for an interim supervisor to take over so that measures can be taken.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I would like to know whether or not this supervisor is known to everyone, if this person is readily accessible. Is this the type of person who could tell the employee's superior that the employee is not happy with his work and that he should watch himself or would this be the type of person who would work with the Public Service Alliance or a union in order to protect the employee and ensure that he is not subject to indirect or malicious retaliation?

[Michelle d'Auray]

The coordinators and individuals responsible for official languages programs are well known in the departments. The employee may also have access to the person who is, to some extent, his supervisor's supervisor. As far as retaliation is concerned, if the employee feels that he is in a bad situation, he can avail himself of several recourse mechanisms or he can call upon the coordinator to resolve the conflict informally. With respect to disclosure, the matter remains completely confidential, in this case.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

All right.

How much time do I have left, Madam Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lise Zarac]

Your time is up. Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a question for Madame d'Auray. As the chief human resources officer for the government, you've got a pretty big responsibility, seeing that the Government of Canada, with all its agencies and departments, is the largest employer in the country. If you include all the crown corporations and the like, it employs close to half a million Canadians. Yet we seem to have trouble hiring public servants who are bilingual when they start. As a consequence, we have to devote a significant amount of resources and effort to training many unilingual public servants to ensure they are bilingual.

Have you or has your group tried to indicate to the universities and colleges producing these graduates that they are not coming to us with the qualifications we need? In other words, Canadian universities aren't producing the bilingual graduates we need in the public service. Have those discussions gone on directly with either the universities or their associations?

[Michelle d'Auray]

The short answer to your question is yes, there are many discussions that are currently under way.

For example, we have a network of deputy ministers who have been assigned or named as champions. They work directly with universities to encourage them and to determine the best ways they can help encourage and continue to encourage the students currently in their programs in order to make sure they are proficient in both official languages.

As I think I mentioned, the Canada School of Public Service is going to be launching a pilot project with a number of universities to see how it can in fact spread the use of its own tools in order to increase the proficiency of graduating students in both official languages. We're all going to be watching the results of that, because it's a way of embedding into the curriculum or the process in which students are learning the use of existing tools and mechanisms either to enhance their capacity or to develop a capacity in the other official language.

It is an issue in which the Commissioner of Official Languages is also very interested. We have had a number of discussions with him on that to see if we can join efforts to work together and to speak to universities. In all instances, though, the government recognizes its responsibilities and does in fact provide learning and training in the other official language in order to make sure that employees have the ability to increase their career opportunities within the public service.

I think one element that is actually quite important to remember is that not all positions are bilingual. So we are dealing with a certain set of positions—I think about 40% of our positions—within the core public administration that are bilingual.