Official Languages Committee on May 26th, 2009

[Pierre Daigle]

The Minister of National Defence and the Chief of Defence Staff welcomed our recommendations.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

They did nothing, Mr. Daigle. They merely welcomed the recommendations. Do you agree?

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Mr. Godin, I'll try to respect the time allotted to us.

To do that, I'll now go to Mr. Lemieux.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for being here today. This is a very important issue.

I'm a member who represents a lot of Ontario francophones, from the riding of Glengarry—Prescott—Russell. Young francophones have to have the opportunity to pursue careers in French. I know there are positive things. For example, I went to the Cité Collégiale. The Canadian Forces have ties with the Cité Collégiale to train military members in their trades in French. There was also the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean, which I had the opportunity to attend when I joined the Canadian Forces at the age of 17. It was unfortunately closed by the former government, but we reopened it. That's a positive aspect for young francophone non-commissioned officers.

At Borden, however, there are problems that have to be solved.

In my time in the military, what I found was that the military was very good at looking at a problem and understanding it, breaking it down into subcomponents, objectives, and then they're good at attacking it. But there are always conflicting priorities.

One of the questions I wanted to ask was how you and your office take notice of or how you incorporate perhaps conflicting priorities in your reports.

I'll just give you an example. You mention in your reports that there has been good progress made, and that's good; however, there are still some huge deficiencies, for example, to have instructors

who are able to teach in French at CFB Borden.

Most of the francophones in the 5th Brigade probably live at CFB Valcartier. However, the 5th Brigade may be engaged in Afghanistan.

How do you take that into account, or do you take that into account? How do you weigh other priorities that the military may have—for example, operational priorities that would obligate them to transfer...? The people who would be good francophone instructors might be serving in Afghanistan when they are deployed there. So how do you incorporate that into your report or into your assessment?

[Pierre Daigle]

Monsieur le président, we realize, obviously, the environment in which everybody is working, and we realize the commitment and challenges of the institution of the Canadian Forces.

When we do an investigation we need to concentrate on fairness and on justice. What we found out in Borden was that there was an unfair situation for those unilingual francophones getting their training and so on. So obviously this has to be our priority and we need to focus on the unfairness as such.

We don't do any qualifying of this unfairness in the overall environment. We understand the operational tempo because we are also facing other problems with our troops, regarding PTSD and so on, but when we look at an unfair situation, we address that situation as a stand-alone.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Are you working with the Canadian Forces to put realistic timetables in place for other priorities, for example?

We could conduct a study now and conclude that 75 things have to be resolved. However, perhaps it isn't possible to resolve all those matters at the same time. Perhaps we have to have an action plan to solve the first 25 problems, and then the next 25 problems, and finish by solving the last 25, in accordance with established timetables.

Are you following that kind of process, or are you merely identifying the problems that have to be solved?

[Pierre Daigle]

We're identifying the problems and, after studying them, informing the chain of command and Chief of Defence Staff of them and requesting follow-up. When we receive answers, we normally send out investigators to check that the actions taken have indeed been implemented in the field.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I noted the comments on—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have a few seconds left.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Is the training material in a language primary or secondary? When I was in the forces, they made major efforts to ensure that the material was in English and in French. All the books were bilingual, but perhaps additional material came from the armed forces of the United States or another country. However, that was supplementary material.

[Pierre Daigle]

In many cases, the course material that students need to take their courses was not in their mother tongue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Lemieux.

We'll now start our second round.

Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Daigle and Mr. Egglefield. Thank you for being here with us today.

I find it troubling that this problem isn't just at Borden, but at Gagetown and St-Jean as well. It's virtually the rule everywhere. Health and safety are basic responsibilities of employers. As the employer is the Government of Canada, is this aspect involved as well? There are laws requiring employers to ensure the health and safety of their employees. Instead we're focusing on official languages, but I nevertheless wanted to mention this very important aspect to you.

Earlier Mr. Godin asked a question to which we didn't get an answer. We're talking about fairness. However, some people don't have career opportunities, and that's troubling. There must surely be complaints.

[Pierre Daigle]

We receive complaints. When Mr. Côté visited in November 2006, people complained directly to him.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Is there a complaints process that soldiers can use when they aren't satisfied?

[Pierre Daigle]

Absolutely. Our office receives complaints directly. They can submit their complaints by various means. Every complaint that we receive is examine individually.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Can you give us the approximate number of complaints you've received in the past two years?

[Pierre Daigle]

I couldn't give you that number, but perhaps the Director of Investigations remembers it.

[Denis Egglefield, Director of Investigations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chairman, in fact, we receive very few complaints. We recommended to the people at Borden that they establish a complaints mechanism to solve problems where they arise. They put in place a mechanism that is better than the previous one, which amounted to virtually nothing. When we completed the investigation, the mechanism wasn't entirely up to the level we would have liked.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I don't think that's true. You're told that there's been progress, whereas that's not the case. So to resolve the complaints that you must receive, there is a lot of work to be done in other areas. You obviously must receive some. It must be troubling for a soldier to see that there are no opportunities for advancement.

You say you're ready to cooperate with the Commissioner of Official Languages. Are you involved in the action plan to solve the problems at Borden?

[Pierre Daigle]

While we were doing the study, the investigations and the two follow-up visits to Borden, we received complaints from Gagetown and St-Jean. We sent investigators to Gagetown and St-Jean. It was after those visits that we learned that there were similar problems on those bases.

The review of this systemic problem continues and we've referred the file to the Commissioner of Official Languages. The Commissioner has probably even started auditing the Canadian Forces bases where training is provided.

On our side, we'll continue handling each complaint individually. During my subsequent visits to all the Canadian Forces bases, I will pay particular attention to official languages. I met with Mr. Fraser and we agreed on how we will work in cooperation on this matter.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

All right. You take action when you receive complaints. Are you going to follow up with the Commissioner at regular intervals?

[Pierre Daigle]

Yes, absolutely. We're going to stay in touch. As I previously said, I'm going to conduct visits. It's part of my mandate to meet all the people I serve. I have mainly focused on this situation. It's a very important issue.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Did you make any specific recommendations to the Commissioner concerning the action plan?

[Pierre Daigle]

What action plan?