Official Languages Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2009

[MGen W. Semianiw]

Thank you.

I'll leave that for the team behind me to answer, but I think you'll be very happy to hear that they've identified the areas where they need additional instructors. They were identified by the ombudsman when he visited and when he was in front of this committee in May, I believe; however, I'll let the team respond. They have addressed that, but you're right, if there aren't as many as you need, then more would be doing the work. A plan has been made, and you'll hear it in the second hour.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Coming from a classroom myself, and having had French-speaking teachers teaching French immersion, I know they put.... That's what they do with the little ones, so it would be even more so when you come to the older students, seeing what they need to learn.

[MGen W. Semianiw]

There's one other issue, if I can raise it with the committee.

I don't have a chance to ask a question, but I'll answer the question I'm going to throw out to you. We are doing a lot for dependants. It's an area I'm very passionate about, and that is that francophone dependants anywhere around the world can get some training, if they need to, to be able to make their situation better when it comes to finding a job. Clearly, wherever you are, it may not be that easy.

So we are doing a lot for dependants, as Colonel Meloche would explain if the question were asked. We've broadened the program. We've broadened it because we've now been able to raise the level of his work to an oversight level. We've got the commanders of the navy, the army, and the air force with a plan of action now for each of these areas that obviously needs to be fully implemented. It's another area we're looking at to ensure they get the support they need.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

And it's very obvious you have a passion for that and you are working in the right direction to provide those things.

[MGen W. Semianiw]

I do. I'm married to a francophone. My family comes from Thetford Mines. I have a chance to travel with my family to see that, so I clearly understand it's a leadership issue. It's about the act, but more importantly it's about leadership. And it's not just about language; it's about culture. That's what we need to do, if we want to get this right.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You still have one minute, Ms. O'Neill-Gordon.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Are you satisfied with the progress being made on follow-up to the issues raised by the ombudsman with the official language matrix that outlines the department's plan?

[MGen W. Semianiw]

Yes. Thank you.

We were working with the ombudsman, and you'll hear from the team in the second hour about what has been done. To ensure you hear that, we've asked them to lay it out for the committee in some other way. But you'll be very pleased with what's being done in Borden and Saint-Jean to address all those areas identified by the ombudsman, be it, one, having sufficient materials in both official languages, having instructors, or, two, having support on the base, so our francophone students get that support when they go to different parts of the base.

They're two separate issues, but you'll hear that from the team. They've addressed both, and I'm very proud of the great work they've done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Good.

Thank you, Ms. O'Neill-Gordon.

Mr. Godin, go ahead please.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

First of all, I must admit that your comments on the direction that National Defence is taking are quite strong. It now remains to be seen what the results will be.

When do you think you'll have the results, since you're asking us to invite you back next year?

[Col J.P.L. Meloche]

We already have results for the generals. The first objective was for the lieutenant-generals to obtain the CBC language profile before December 31, 2007. That objective was achieved. The second objective concerned the major-generals, those we commonly called “two-star” generals. They have to have a CBC language profile before December 31, 2009. Then the final group of generals, the “one-star” generals, the brigadier-generals, must have a CBC language profile before December 31, 2011.

We want to come back in a year because we'll be able to tell you how many more courses have been translated, how many more people are receiving training in the language of their choice, how many more policies we've been able to implement. These are concrete things.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We should put them on the agenda. I therefore officially ask that we set you down on the agenda to come back before the committee. As I've previously said, you've made a lot of statements, but taking action is something else. Your actions will have to be evaluated to see what has happened. The story that Mr. Nadeau told is unfortunate. You say senior officers have to get the CBC linguistic profile. Perhaps they should start by learning their ABCs. I may be the toughest guy on that subject.

I'm going to give you an example. Air Canada told us that it's making its workers learn French. Rather than say, “I don't speak French,” they'll say, “Je ne parle pas français”. On the weekend, I took the plane and that's exactly what happened. A person told me she didn't speak French and I was never able to tell her which sandwich I wanted of the six that were offered. I pointed out the name of the sandwich and I told her I wanted it. However, she repeated to me that she didn't speak French. I told her I wanted that sandwich. She told me: “Je ne parle pas français”. I swear I said it three times: “Je veux celui-ci”. She answered me that she didn't speak French. So Minister Stockwell Day said: “He wants that sandwich.” Ah! He turned to me and told me he thought she didn't speak French and that she didn't understand him either. I'm telling you this little story because we're being told all kinds of things. I'm taking you seriously. You represent the Department of National Defence, which represents us in Canada and abroad. You are our ambassadors. You go to countries to fight so that the people of those countries will have the right to democracy, whereas, in Canada, there are two official languages acts that aren't complied with.

Let's go back to Mr. Nadeau's story. Imagine that person gets on a ship for a period of six months. The only thing the commander will have learned to say is, “Je ne parle pas français.” His stay on that boat won't be very pleasant, even if that comes from you. Since we've been talking about it, he should know that's not the way to talk to a military member. I'm pleased you said you were trying to solve the problem. Imagine the position a person finds himself in. I'm not a man who is easily influenced, but I guarantee you that, when I was sitting in my airplane seat, I was fed up with showing her the damned sandwich. Imagine the guy who works for the commander.

[MGen W. Semianiw]

Hopefully the sandwich was good.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It was pretty good, especially if you're hungry.

[MGen W. Semianiw]

I would say there are two pieces here. The one piece is the issue that—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Two pieces of sandwich?

[MGen W. Semianiw]

No. It depends if you want to be the meat in the sandwich or not, which I don't want to be.

In the end, Monsieur Nadeau raised the issue. I would submit to you this is a question that's posed to me in everything we do: mental health, ailing, the injured. You will always find these cases, even with the perfect system.

You see these kinds of cases even in a perfect system.

But the key is, what do you do with this? That's what speaks to action. What will be done in that case? And hopefully Monsieur Nadeau will give me the letter or at least provide a little bit more fidelity and granularity on the details, because that's the key. The leadership has to now take that, even in a perfect system.

We could be here perhaps--hopefully not--in five years, where individual cases will come up. They will, but the issue is not the case. It's what you do to resolve it, to get it sorted out. That's what we need to do.

So I think there are two issues you will see. You see the department, the Canadian Forces, with a plan that's moving ahead aggressively, and secondly, you see the leadership taking ownership of the plan.

That's the most important thing in my opinion.

It actually takes ownership of the plan and takes action to ensure that the plan is put into place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Godin. You've given us an appetite for the next hour.

I'd like to thank you, General Semianiw and Colonel Meloche. You'll be with us for the next hour. I encourage you to continue your efforts, among other things, as regards leadership in the implementation of the Canadian Forces Official Languages Program Transformation Model.

We will now suspend our proceedings for a few minutes.

[MGen W. Semianiw]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

We'll now resume the proceedings of our 38th meeting. Colonel J.P.L. Meloche, who is Director of Official Languages, is still with us. We also welcome Colonel J.J.R.G. Hamel, who is Commander of Canadian Forces Base Borden, as well as Lieutenant-Colonel S.J.R. Whelan, Commander of Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School. It is also our pleasure to welcome once again to the committee Major-General J.P.Y.D. Gosselin, Commander of the Canadian Defence Academy.

General, I believe you want to make an opening speech. Go ahead please.

[MGen J.P.Y.D. Gosselin, Commander, Canadian Defence Academy, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Honourable committee members, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. Thank you for this opportunity to update you on the progress being made to improve the status of official languages within the Canada Defence Academy, specifically pertaining to the provision of French and English language instruction and services for Canadian Forces recruits.

I command the Canadian Defence Academy, which includes the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School in Saint-Jean, the royal military colleges located in Saint-Jean and in Kingston, the Canadian Forces Support Training Group and Base Borden, which includes a number of military schools, as well as the Canadian Forces College in Toronto.

I have with me today Colonel Guy Hamel, commander of the Support Training Group and Base Borden, and Lieutenant-Colonel Steve Whelan, commandant of the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School.

I have also provided the committee with a copy of a PowerPoint presentation that provides some information that we may refer to during the discussion, if you wish.

Since the implementation of the official languages program transformation model in 2007, the Canadian Defence Academy and all of its units have worked diligently on strategies to meet the objectives of the program.

At the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School in Saint-Jean, we offer all services, instruction, documentation, and working tools in both official languages, and the school benefits as well from its co-location with the Canadian Forces Language School, which I also command.

Similarly, the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean was recently the subject of a review from the official languages coordinator which revealed that the college is in a good position to offer instruction and instructional material to students in both official languages; offer the opportunity for students to practise both official languages outside the classroom; ensure an environment conducive to the effective use of both official languages; and communicate with the public and with staff in the language of their choice.

The Royal Military College of Canada, located in Kingston, Ontario, has continuously focused on developing an officer corps available to communicate with all members of the Canadian Forces and the Canadian population in general in the official language of their choice. Specifically, all academic programs are offered in both official languages. Bilingualism is one of the four pillars of the college, and as such all officer cadets expecting to graduate and be commissioned as an officer in the Canadian Forces must take second-language training during their four years at the college. This is in addition to constant exposure to activities conducted in both official languages. Officer cadets are also permitted to take their courses in their second language when their language proficiency allows it.

In 2007 the DND and Canadian Forces ombudsman visited Base Borden and identified areas of non-compliance. Many measures have since been put forward to address those concerns.

The base commander at Borden has ensured all signage, written notices, and standardized public announcements are in both official languages. He has appointed an official languages champion to increase visibility on official languages issues. He has made official languages obligations an integral part of senior officer personnel development reviews and personnel evaluation reports. He has hired, and will continue to hire, bilingual staff to serve students and staff in their official language of choice. He has hosted three official languages-themed open houses. He has conducted an extensive public relations campaign to increase on base and off base official languages awareness. And he has implemented annual briefings to all unit coordinators for updates on official languages matters, complemented by unit visits and audits.

Significant progress has been made by all of the Canadian Defence Academy's units, and efforts continue to be made to further improve the status of official languages to effectively answer to the obligations and responsibilities as set out by the Official Languages Act and the official languages program transformation model.

Despite the number of initiatives and significant additional resources invested, it will take years of sustained effort and focused leadership to bring the official languages issue throughout the CDA formation at a fully satisfactory level. I am, we are, fully committed to seeing this to the end and to build upon the recent progress of the last few years.

Along with Colonel Hamel and Lieutenant-Colonel Whelan, I look forward to answering your questions today and to tell you more about our achievements of the last few years.

Merci bien.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, General Gosselin.

We'll begin our first round with Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thanks to the four of you for being here today. You talked about second-language instruction during the four years of study at the college. Could you give us a little more of an explanation. Are there any incentives for francophones and anglophones to take courses in the other language to improve their second-language proficiency? Is the instruction given in person or over the Internet? It's easy to learn a word in the other language; you only need to check what it means in a dictionary. However, the challenge is greater when you have to have a conversation. You don't have a conversation with the Internet or with a dictionary; you have to practise.

What instructional means are you using to ensure that military members acquire the necessary experience and skills in their second language?

[MGen J.P.Y.D. Gosselin]

Thank you for the question.

In fact, the bilingualism program at the military college is basic and is one of the four pillars of the program, the other three pillars being the academic program, the sports program—physical fitness, and the military program.

In fact, when they finish, students have to have the BBB bilingualism rating. They have four years to do that. All cadets are assessed on arrival and are immediately divided up and assigned to the appropriate groups, based on their bilingualism level. The courses are given in small classes of 8, 10 or 12 students, depending on their levels. Students take an hour of courses a day over four years, or until they reach the BBB level.

If they want to continue, they have incentives that give them higher marks, a level of established standards comparable to that of more advanced language courses given in other universities. And a number of students will continue their language studies, either in French or in English, over their four years.

The results are excellent. Naturally, cadets are at an age where they can learn more easily, more quickly. There are also a number of other things in the program that encourage them to become bilingual. For example, there are French weeks, English weeks, programs, instructions; everything is done in both languages. Military instructions will be given in both languages on parade, for example.

Consequently, when students reach their second year, they're already aware of all the commands given in French and English on parade, for example. These are all little things, but they are nevertheless things that sharpen the hearing so that, at the end of their years of study, students manage to achieve a very good level of bilingualism. What we hope is that, with the years, they will maintain it.

The day they want to achieve a higher level, CBC, that will of course be easier. And we're seeing it; the results are there.