Official Languages Committee on March 10th, 2009

[François Charbonneau]

That is not where the problems lie. The problem in terms of textbooks relates more to the elementary and secondary levels. In many cases, they are specific textbooks. At the university level, for all sorts of reasons, teaching in French is possible...

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That's fine. That answers my question.

[François Charbonneau]

Resources can be used to get access to international journals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez.

We will now move on to Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We need to encourage English Canadians to learn French in order to become bilingual. I know that at some point we had developed programs. The University of British Columbia, for one, offered courses in French, regardless of the subject, under pilot projects. They realized that for a lot of university students their level of French was not adequate for taking a course in everyday French. Those students had taken immersion programs, but they were not sufficiently familiar with the ins and outs of the language. So the stopped offering those courses, because the students who were fluent in French found that they were wasting their time.

I know that you work in postsecondary education, apart from CMEC, which also involves postsecondary education. I know that some anglophone school boards are removing basic French courses for anglophones from their curricula, or simply eliminating immersion programs. If we do away with French as a second language courses at the secondary level, how can we consider teaching people in French in the anglophone world, when the students have only a basic knowledge of French when they enter university?

[Jean-Gilles Pelletier]

You're entirely right. That's indeed an issue. You've described the drop in the number of core French instruction and French immersion programs. We, on the other hand, have observed a significant and promising increase across Canada in the number of graduates who have taken not only a core French program, that is to say a second-language introductory program, but also an immersion program. It's really the immersion programs that will enable a larger number of Canadians, both anglophone and francophone, to speak the other official language. These programs are increasingly popular across Canada, and that's very promising.

However, I want to make an incidental remark in connection with what you just mentioned. We hope that the next MOU will give us more guidance so that we can better understand the impact of the funding invested. However, we have to be realistic. Out of the $100 billion that the provincial and territorial governments invest in education every year, the agreement I'm referring to today represents $250 million. That's a drop in the ocean. It's through much more societal efforts that we'll be able to move things forward. It's important to raise the issue, to ensure that these social issues come to the surface. I find the kind of debate you're conducting here absolutely important. The kind of relation—

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Allow me to interrupt you, Mr. Pelletier. I have about a minute left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

You have about a minute left, sir.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I would like Mr. Charbonneau to take over.

Isn't it paradoxical—there are a lot of paradoxes in society and we try to resolve them—that we invest so much money in instruction in French as a second language, whereas we don't invest enough in teaching French as a first language in the minority communities? While the pan-Canadian and Acadian francophone community is declining, the number of bilingual anglophones is increasing. Don't you see in this paradox indicators that will help you correct this decline in one language relative to the other, without opposing them as a whole?

[François Charbonneau]

This is clearly the challenge of francophone communities outside Quebec. As Roger Bernard said, the issue of the francophone community in Quebec is number. As long as we are numerous enough, we'll be there. That's always the issue.

It's obviously somewhat paradoxical, and matters have to be resolved in that area. However, we must nevertheless be careful because our institutions are also admitting students who come from the immersion sector. To return to the example cited earlier, 25% of students at the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface have previously taken an immersion program. However, they don't stop offering certain courses because students are apparently unable to follow them. On the contrary, they improve them. In fact, this is exactly what we're looking for, that is to say integration into the francophone community, learning French and diplomas that have some value.

The fact remains that this is much harder in certain parts of the country where you don't necessarily have this proximity of francophone communities. It goes back to what I was saying earlier: we have to do both. Despite their fragility, the francophone communities are also ready to do their share to assist in French-language instruction. In any case, nearly all our institutions, with one exception, offer French-as-a-second-language courses or special integration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau and Mr. Charbonneau.

Now we'll go to the parliamentary secretary, Ms. Shelly Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Welcome. It's really a pleasure to have you here.

I want to share my story. I'm an anglophone. I went through the first immersion program in Saint-Boniface. The teachers at the time were really good. We also did our studies with Francophones. We were in the same school. I believe that, as Mr. Nadeau said, the basis of French-language instruction in the primary and secondary immersion schools has changed. Parents interfered in the immersion programs because they wanted their children to speak English more often, which meant they did not practise French. I have three children who earned diplomas taking their courses in immersion programs.

The base has changed at university. Do you have any influence, Mr. Pelletier? Once students get to university, they get what's there. Do you speak with the primary and secondary schools?

[Jean-Gilles Pelletier]

Cross-Canada discussions are underway. They are focusing on the official languages, but also on academic fields, to establish equivalencies and correspondences between a grade 6 math program in British Columbia and the equivalent in Nova Scotia.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

We see that French-language instruction has changed.

[Jean-Gilles Pelletier]

CMEC is continuing its initiatives by bringing to the table the various stakeholders responsible for curriculum and test development across the country. How will we gradually go about raising the bar? Of course, pilot projects are being conducted to see how we could, for example, analyze the implementation of the European common framework, which essentially establishes a language learning standard for the entire country.

This won't be done in a single day, but pilot projects are underway, which is promising. People and resources are being mobilized to analyze this kind of situation. This will give us a much more objective measurement of the progress our students make in learning their second language.

That said, this is still a strictly provincial and territorial area of jurisdiction. This isn't a single program, like the programs managed by CMEC and the bilateral agreements, which will have an overnight impact on all programs in all provinces. Whatever the case may be, we're striving to establish a kind of pan-Canadian benchmark for second-language learning programs.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I encourage you to continue because, like Mr. Nadeau, I'm concerned about the subject of our base.

Mr. Charbonneau, I have a question about francophone postsecondary schools. As you said, you are admitting anglophones. Are the courses given to anglophones in institutions that admit anglophones and francophones different? Are anglophones and francophones put in the same classes?

[François Charbonneau]

In our institutions, anglophones and francophones take the same courses. It should be pointed out here that these are bilingual institutions. For example, students attending the University of Ottawa could take all their courses in English only. Anglophone students who choose to take their courses in French are entitled to the same courses as anyone else, but will obviously be facing the challenges that presents.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Do you see a difference between the graduates of programs attended by anglophones and francophones and those of French programs attended by anglophones only, where francophones are graduates? Do you see a difference in the quality of their French when they enter the labour market?

[François Charbonneau]

I don't have any statistics on that. I suppose someone who takes the trouble to take courses will have higher-quality French.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Glover.

We'll now begin our third round.

Ms. Zarac.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Thank you for being with us.

As a new member—

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

I'm sorry Ms. Zarac, but I made a mistake. In my eagerness, I forgot to let our second Vice-Chair speak. We will therefore complete our second round.

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

Mr. Charbonneau, you said earlier that there was nothing from the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality last year.

[François Charbonneau]

There was very little for the postsecondary level.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Pelletier, you said there was a lot of money, all kinds of money to spend. It's as though there were millions and millions of dollars. And yet Mr. Charbonneau says there was very little.

Can you explain to me what is going on?