Evidence of meeting #24 for Official Languages in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

8:45 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Welcome, everyone. On this Thursday, February 9, 2012, we are starting the 24th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

We are discussing the motion of Costas Menegakis, which reads as follows:That all Committee business of the Committee be conducted in camera.

Dan Harris has introduced an amendment which reads as follows: That the motion be amended by adding after the words "in camera" the following: "with the consent of at least one member of the opposition or a vote by committee at the start of any sitting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages where Committee business is to be discussed."

Robert Aubin had the floor at the end of Tuesday's meeting.

Consequently, Mr. Aubin, you may begin.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to all the members and the new faces that have joined us. This is quite curious. In fact, I have two hypotheses. Mr. Trottier, our ideas are similar on this point. My first hypothesis is that we have become the most popular committee and that everybody wants a piece of it. The second is that everyone wants to find out what is going on. We shouldn't go so far as to sell tickets because we are quite well paid for the work we do. In fact, we really are overpaid for the work we are unfortunately unable to do as a result of the motion we are discussing. I will come back to that point.

That being said, I want to welcome all the newcomers who are joining us. Since the newcomers are on the government side, I hope that, having heard the arguments around this table, more and more of you will discuss among yourselves the necessity—I don't believe there is any other word for it—of persuading Mr. Menegakis, or Mr. Gourde, or any other person in authority, to withdraw this motion, which interferes with not only the right of parliamentarians, but also that of all citizens of this country, to see and hear the issues debated by the various parties seated around this table.

For those joining us, welcome to Democracy 101. This is the second class. We started on Tuesday. The time goes by so quickly. Before me, there was an excellent introduction by Ms. Michaud, whom I thank once again. She was preceded by Mauril Bélanger, whom I thank enormously and to whom I wish bon appétit.

8:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh oh!

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

It seems to me your turn will come later, and I wouldn't want to disclose any information on work that might have been done at a previous in camera session.

Mr. Harris, it seems to me your turn to speak will come soon in this public session, "soon" being a somewhat vague term; let's say that is an objective.

So I am putting on my teacher's hat this morning. Unfortunately, I miss the blackboard and chalk. There aren't any here. Am I entitled to that?

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

You should ask for it.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

All right, I'll request it next week.

When I taught, I used to outline the course plan at the start so that students would have an idea of what the course would look like. I wanted them to be eager for me to get to point 3, if that was the one that interested them the most. Unfortunately, this morning, we will have to go at it point by point. You will see as we go along what ideas and concerns I want to put on this table.

You are not required to note down everything I say on your computers because it will be recorded by the House Reporting Service and distributed to you. You can just cheerfully follow along.

Unfortunately, the fundamental difference between my course and the committee is that, as a result of procedural rules, it is impossible to entertain your questions. I admit that is somewhat unfortunate because, in the next few minutes, I will have to try as hard as I can to anticipate your questions, to imagine them, to state them for you and then to answer them. Perhaps we could use tricks like the one Mr. Gourde seems to want to present to us. I'm open to everything.

As I said at the last meeting, there are two hypotheses regarding the dispute between us. I remind you that we are discussing a motion, and I say that for those who may have just joined us, since we are sitting in public. Our discussion is about a motion that was introduced by Mr. Menegakis and that reads as follows: "That all Committee business of the Committee be conducted in camera."

I read it well, didn't I? That is really important. I would emphasize one thing that I underscore in all my press releases. I repeat that the word that divides us in this motion, if there is one, is the word "all". The word "all" allows for no exceptions. The words "all" and "none" are the two extreme ends of the spectrum. We can do absolutely nothing about that.

The French language is so precise that it allows for no interpretation. In fact, there may be one exception. In this case, I appreciate the English language, in which a distinction is drawn between the words "like" and "love". There is no such distinction in French, as a result of which I can and must use exactly the same verb to say "I love my wife" and that "I love ice cream." It's the same thing. I believe there really is a flagrant lack of precision in French in this regard.

However, as regards vocabulary as a whole, it can practically be said that no language in the world is as precise as the French language. That moreover is why many international treaties have been drafted in French. When it comes to interpreting what has been written—we all know that you have to interpret both the spirit and the letter of a treaty, convention or any signed contract—the French language is clearly the most precise.

The expression "all Committee business of the Committee" is what divides us. Mr. Harris, in an obvious attempt to bring the two sides closer, moved an amendment that started with the words "That the motion be amended by adding after the words 'in camera' the following: 'with the consent of at least one member of the opposition'..." Personally, I would have stopped there. It seems to me that would have been a sign of genuine collaboration and of our ability to get along with each other and to debate the issues dividing us. However, Mr. Harris is, by nature, probably far more generous than I am.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Dan Harris NDP Scarborough Southwest, ON

I love everyone.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

He went even further and added "...or a vote by Committee at the start of any sitting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages where Committee business is to be discussed."

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Pardon me for interrupting, but Ms. Michaud has a point of order.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

I have a point of procedure. I would like this meeting to be televised.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

We need the unanimous consent of the committee members. Is there unanimous consent to have the meeting televised?

8:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Yvon Godin

Thank you.

Continue then, Mr. Aubin.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

I am disappointed, but perhaps relieved as well, that it's not being televised. I believe I'm late in paying my membership dues to the Union des artistes. I might not be in good standing, although that's probably not necessary on CPAC.

Where was I? I was talking about this amendment by Mr. Harris, which I believe was the broadest possible compromise. Briefly, for those joining us for the first time, here is the issue of our debate: it is absolutely unthinkable—I believe there is no other word for it—in a democracy such as Canada's, for us to accept a permanent gag order. That is ultimately what this means. All committee proceedings, without exception, would be held in camera. Since the public and the media would constantly be kept in the dark, they would never—that's also a word of quite extreme scope, but one that says what it means—be able to follow our proceedings, to form their own opinion or at least to inform the member who represents them of their satisfaction or dissatisfaction.

This utterly unacceptable situation has led us to undertake this marathon of indignation. That is the expression I used on the spur of the moment on Tuesday. We must use every means at our disposal to prevent this procedure from being implemented.

I said there were two hypotheses regarding this motion. I admit I did not specifically say that, under the first hypothesis, this is an ideological approach by the government party. I dare hope that is a pure fabrication on my part and that a Canadian government represented by any party whatever simply cannot have such an obtuse and closed vision of democracy. In a way, I consider it a duty to rule out that first hypothesis. The fact remains, however, that the more time goes by, the more it tends to become settled in my mind.

The second hypothesis, which I hope is the more plausible, is that the government has introduced such a strong motion as a result of proceedings that might divide us, of undesired behaviour that it would not like to see repeated. In saying that, however, I find it hard to imagine what the opposition parties could have done that was so serious and immoral for such a motion to be introduced. However, I still hope that the second hypothesis is the valid one and that, if so, we will collectively be able to find a way to debate the motion. In that way, rather than avoid the issue by saying it will deprive us of our right to speak in public, which amounts to a form of gag order, we would be able to resolve the issue on the merits.

Unfortunately, gag orders are increasingly being imposed. We saw that again in the House of Commons yesterday. That leaves a bitter taste in my mouth to say the least. Like a number of others, I am a newly elected politician. Although I am 51 years old, I arrived in Ottawa full of ideals, probably like those of a young adult who still strongly believes in democracy. I taught that approach for years. I tried to replace the cynicism toward politics with a wave of positivism. I even believe I achieved modest success in that respect in my constituency. That at least was one of the objectives of my campaign. I had three objectives.

The day I won the New Democratic Party's nomination, three close friends who follow politics in Montreal congratulated me. They thought it was interesting that I had won and they were pleased that someone was going to defend those ideas in the public arena. However, they asked me if I really expected to get elected. I thanked them and answered that I had entered the race because I believed in it. I felt I belonged to the Cinderella team. I said to myself that, on May 2, we would see which candidates would be going to the ball. We know how the story ends: I am here because I went to the ball.

My first objective was therefore to defend ideas, which I am doing this morning, in a somewhat bigger forum.

My second objective was to increase the voter turn-out rate and the vote associated with the ideas I advocate in my riding of Trois-Rivières. I admit we started off a few lengths behind, but I thought the goal was achievable. If memory serves me, I had to beat a rate of 9%, the rate from the previous election. I thought that was possible.

My third objective was to achieve critical success, that is to say to conduct a campaign good enough to finish second, hot on the heels of the Bloc Québécois.

My ultimate objective, which I kept secret, was to win. I did everything in my power to win, and I am here today to defend those ideas. That is why I am opposing this motion this morning. And I will do so as long as that is necessary.

This motion reminds me of a French, or at least francophone, expression. I do not know the origin of that expression, but I get the feeling this motion is like killing a fly with a cannon. It's difficult to use a cannon to kill a fly. First of all, the fly is very quick. Even with a cannon, you might not hit the fly, the target. However, no one can fail to see the damage caused by a cannon. Unfortunately, I get the impression this is the image we are projecting to the public through the debate we are conducting on this motion. We are using a cannon to kill a fly. It's a fly that citizens can no longer see, but we are forcing Canadians to see the damage we are making. That is utterly unacceptable.

I fought on Tuesday, I am fighting this morning, and I will fight as long as it is necessary to do so. Why and for what am I fighting? Those are probably the first two questions I had to ask myself. It's all well and good to fight, but I don't think I deserve to be more popular because I have debated this motion for several minutes. That is not what I am seeking either. What are the reasons for, and who are the people related to, my actions?

First, I will talk about the "why" and then I will finish by talking about the "for whom". The reasons concern all the people whom I will then name.

The first reason is to safeguard, as far as possible, a fundamental principle of our democracy, freedom of speech or freedom of expression. I can't imagine how anyone could conceive of the idea, even for one second, of introducing a motion that interferes with freedom of speech. We have seen a lot of this with all the time allocation motions introduced in the House of Commons since the election. This cuts off the right to speak by limiting time and ensuring that every member who wishes to speak on a bill does not necessarily have the time to do so. This is just a cut-off, and it is already horrific. In this case, however, we are no longer even talking about a cut-off, but rather about a clinical death. There is no longer any right to speak in public, which is unacceptable.

I am also fighting this fight—and others are doing it with me—because it seems obvious to me that this way of doing things and this motion, if adopted, can only further foster Canadians' cynicism toward the parliamentary system. The voter turn-out rate is already a fundamental problem. Many people are tearing their hair out—although there isn't much to pull out in my case—trying to make our institution credible. I will have occasion to return to this point later on and to present various statistics and studies.

Consequently, we would be shooting ourselves in the foot by adopting a motion banning elected representatives' right to speak. I hope no one finds a way to strip citizens of their right to speak, which would really take the cake. The fact remains that I am already hearing talk about action, bills designed to limit the speaking time of pressure groups on certain development projects and problems with environmental consequences. People who want to speak on those issues are already being characterized as extremists. We are headed toward a society that is not one I want to grow up in. I have finished growing up, but as my father always said, greatness is measured from the shoulders up. So I still have a chance. This also isn't a society I want to hand on to my children or to all my descendants. This fight is vitally important.

For whom is it vitally important? It is undoubtedly very important to give a face to the people for whom we are fighting this fight. I remind you that we are on the Standing Committee on Official Languages. The first persons or first groups I am thinking of are obviously all those groups across Canada that are living in a linguistic minority setting. What is the exact term? Are we talking about linguistic minority groups? I constantly mix up those expressions. Can someone help me?

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

They are official language minority communities.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thank you very much, Ms. Michaud. I will take note of that. I'll get there. For one reason or another, there are some expressions that I am unable to state. I usually speak quite fluently, but in this case—

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Dan Harris NDP Scarborough Southwest, ON

[Inaudible—Editor]

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Thanks for the translation. Incidentally, I want to tip my hat to those people doing on the interpretation and to welcome them. They have to try to follow my remarks without knowing in advance where I am headed. They do a colossal job, and I want to express my admiration to them.

So for whom are we fighting this fight? It is for all the linguistic minority communities. First, I am obviously thinking of all those that form the Canadian francophone community because they are by far the most numerous. They are also the ones who have to work hardest to try to live in their native language and culture. In saying that, however, I am not forgetting the anglophone minority community in Quebec, which has its own characteristics and problems. We will have occasion to return to that point.

I am talking about the francophonie. I've laid my hands on an absolutely magnificent book entitled, La francophonie canadienne: Portraits. I don't know whether you're familiar with it. I'll probably have the opportunity to read you a few excerpts from it.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

It's by a Sudbury author.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Oh, thank you.

A preposterous idea has just come to mind, that I might read the entire work so that an English version, translated from the French, appears in the committee's record. The book would then be available and that would enable me to bring the two linguistic communities closer together.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

That has already been done.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

Then I will stop. I thought I was being original, but the wheel had already been invented. Thanks to that experienced parliamentarian, Mauril Bélanger. He is a constant source of knowledge and wisdom. I will call you the next time I have what I think is an original idea.

What I found most interesting about the book is its publisher. Do you know its name? You'll never guess: the book is published by Les Éditions Prise de parole, that's really quite curious. As we are discussing this freedom of speech that the government wants to take away from us, I am suggesting that you read a book entitled La francophonie canadienne: Portraits, which has been published by Les Éditions Prise de parole. That is a great coincidence, to say the least, or an interesting combination of circumstances. I am not familiar with that company, but I imagine it must be a francophone publishing house. Is that indeed the case, Mr. Bélanger?

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I would even say its Franco-Ontarian.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC

The name was not selected at random. It seems to me that that publishing house is entirely consistent with the debate we are conducting. It is important to preserve the right to speak and to speak at all costs, not merely for francophones, but for all official language minority communities as a whole and for all the citizens of this country. I will come back to this point.

When I asked for whom we were fighting this fight, I was talking about the anglophone and francophone minorities of this country. It is also for all Canadians who have been muzzled by this motion because they would be unable to get information. It is also for us politicians. We have been elected at high cost. Everyone feels that an election is a bit expensive. I don't remember, but I did the calculation during the last election. It seems to me it worked out to about $1 per citizen per year to establish a democratic system.

Is it more than that? How much does an election cost, Mr. Gourde?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Jacques Gourde Conservative Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC

It's $1 million per constituency.