Official Languages Committee on May 21st, 2013

[Dr. Laura Sims]

Thank you.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Nor do I think you're crazy. I think you're passionate, and that's appreciated.

In the last few weeks, as we've been hearing from a variety of witnesses regarding these four decades of French immersion across Canada, a constant challenge that's been raised both by students who have gone through the program and teachers is the lack of engagement in the second language post-high school. There is a drop-off, and a lot of students who are keen to engage don't have avenues to do that.

Would each of you potentially comment on how you think the federal government might be able to work on issues related to that?

It seems in your case, Mr. Young, that you opted in and out of language and reaffirmed your appreciation, and that was good for you.

We've all touched on the challenge of education being a provincial responsibility, but the consistency with which we have heard this comment leads me to think that the federal government may have a role in targeting some grants specifically for maintaining that post-high school engagement.

[Chris Young]

As I said earlier, possibly there could be more opportunity for immersion at the university level. I think that is possible, because we're seeing that at certain universities. That would be incredibly useful for French immersion students to maintain their French. The biggest thing is confidence. It's really that. It's just confidence. I had really lost my confidence. I'm not speaking as much French now as I used to because of the courses I'm teaching at the high school level. I'm teaching a lot of IB, international baccalaureate, classes right now, so I'm not teaching those classes in French. Being here today and speaking my second language, there is an issue of confidence.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

You're doing a great job.

[Chris Young]

Well, thank you. Merci. That, to me, is the biggest thing. Once again, I would say we need to preserve and possibly increase opportunities, such as being able to work at some of the national historic sites or work for the federal government in different capacities where you can practise your second language.

[Raymond Sokalski]

I would also add—and this is part of what I wanted to say to Monsieur Gourde earlier—that every year we usually have a student just graduated from university placed in our school. I believe their position is paid for by the federal government. They provide career advice and organize contacts between students and people in the workplace to speak about their careers. It's a federal government position. The person works with Reesa Averbach every year—I'm looking at Ms. Bateman—

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

—and is funded through Service Canada.

[Raymond Sokalski]

That's through Service Canada. We have wonderful, dynamic young people whom the high school students can identify with. They can sit down with them and talk about their resumés with them. Every year there's a jobs fair held in our school.

Wouldn't it be great if a school like Kelvin, which has immersion, were earmarked to always have that position filled by a young person who's bilingual and who's looking to bring in speakers who are bilingual so students can see an engineer, a dentist, and a disc jockey who also speak French? I fear that perhaps somebody who isn't bilingual might not think about that and might just say, “I have a dentist here and I have a cinematographer there, and I'll bring them in”. Of course, you won't always be able to find that ideal combo, but that would help.

[Dr. Laura Sims]

One thing the federal government can do is to support educational institutions that teach in French and provide an immersion context, such as Université de Saint-Boniface. I believe in Regina there's a campus, not a full university, but a section of the university, as there is in Alberta and in B.C. There is also Pointe-de-l'Église in Nova Scotia, among others, as well as Université de Moncton. There are a whole bunch.

With respect to collaborative leadership and the initial question of whether we agree with the idea of having all these different positions that have to be bilingual, in order to have an inclusive country that represents all of us from coast to coast to coast, we have to provide the time and the training so that we can all function well in both languages. If that is truly our goal, that means we're taking a person from the Northwest Territories who's a “keen bean” and who wants to be part of it and saying, “Great. We're going to help you with your language skills. If you don't speak both official languages, we're going to help you out so you can participate fully within this government structure”. That to me is so that we have an Inuk voice—let's pretend—and then we also have someone who can function in the two official languages.

Another part is that for post-secondary education at a master's and doctoral level there are NSERC and SSHRC grants and lots of federal grants, but there are getting to be fewer and fewer of them, which I think is highly unfortunate. I think this year fewer than 25% of people got them, and there is a lot of competition for them. I think it would be wonderful if people were encouraged to study and say, “Okay, I'm going to research this in my master's or doctoral degree, and I'm going to research it in my second language”. Why not?

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Madam Sims.

Monsieur Rousseau.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all three of you for your remarks but, above all, for your passion. That struck me right from the outset.

You raised the issue of whether bilingualism was different from respect for the language. That was the first thing you said that struck a chord with me when I was listening to your comments.

I would say that, in Canada, we are forced to learn another language, English or French, if only because we can't access services in our own language. Bilingualism, then, becomes more instrumental than anything else. In other words, it's a way of seeking out services that should actually be available in both official languages across the country. I find that reality a bit troubling. Personally, I feel as though I am in an immersion environment right now.

I was born in Quebec and am proud of my language. I am a French-speaking Quebec-born Canadian in North America, and I wear that label with the utmost pride. I try to convey that message no matter where I am in the parliamentary precinct. It can be difficult to access services in our language. On other committees, I have heard numerous witnesses—deputy ministers and senior officials—who did not speak a word of French. To me, that is unacceptable. As I said, I see my experience in Parliament as an immersion class. I thought I was bilingual before I got here, but that wasn't entirely the case.

I also want to tell you about my daughter's experience; she is now 18. In Grade 6, when she was 12, she started taking an immersion program, half the year in French and the other half in English. Today, she doesn't even have an accent and is perfectly fluent in both languages. So I have no doubt about the value of immersion. It is tremendously valuable. I spoke English well before. I was good enough to carry on a conversation with someone, but I have learned a lot of new English words, especially here, in Parliament.

When we're focusing on bilingualism in Canada, we should have access to services in our own language, all over the country. The Eastern Townships have a large English-speaking population, and sometimes it's impossible to find French-language services. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

[Raymond Sokalski]

I am going to answer that by sharing two observations.

We do a role-playing exercise in which we recreate the signing of Treaty Five and students play the roles of the Cree, the Métis and the white negotiators. When it comes time to sign the treaty, two versions are handed out, and one of them is written in French. The exercise is actually done in French. The white negotiators clearly see what the clauses, criteria and so forth are, and they sign the treaty. Then, a student hands out the second version to the Cree. The entire text is written in wingding characters, in other words, symbols, and they can't understand a word of it.

So they ask what we want them to sign, and we tell them that all they have to do is mark an X to sign, that the agreement covers everything they have just discussed and that they have nothing to worry about. That is when we see authentic reactions. The students say, “You're asking us to sign, but we have no way of knowing that what we just spent three days negotiating actually appears in the agreement”. So they are told, “it's this way or the highway”, otherwise everything they've discussed could go out the window. What you said made me think of that exercise.

My second observation has to do with something else that is taught in the Canadian history class. Manitoba has both official languages but is not a bilingual province. Legally, the difference in the terminology is quite significant. Services are available in French in areas where they are deemed necessary by the government. They aren't guaranteed. That has been the source of many problems and conflicts for Manitoba's French-speaking community.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yes, Ms. Sims? Go ahead.

[Dr. Laura Sims]

I would just like to add something, and I am speaking solely for me.

There's a thought I often have. I long for the day when people across the country can speak both official languages, as well as other languages. I often tell my students that we're living in a transitional period in our history and that it takes a long time for a language to be learned and for that transition to really happen. I am, however, impatient.

Come on, guys, giddy-up.

But I think it's also important to emphasize the value of people's knowledge, whether those people are unilingual or bilingual. Sometimes that means building bridges. For example, I work with francophones who speak only French. If they want access to French-language services, there has to be at least one bilingual person there who can help them. That doesn't mean everyone in the office has to be able to speak French to deliver the service, but that support would at least help with the historical transition towards a more bilingual society.

Coming up with solutions is key. If the goal is to deliver services in French and English, then we have to figure out what we need to do to get there. Does everyone have to speak French? That may not be realistic given the resources that would take. But can we hire someone who is fluent in both official languages?

For sure.

Absolutely, because that would help bring about the transition. We would become a bilingual society, one that does what it can given the situation and the resources available. In turn, that may do more to motivate others to learn French, an effort that would highlight the importance of both languages, depending on the situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Very good. Thank you.

Mr. Young, the last word goes to you.

[Chris Young]

Very briefly, I would just say that wasn't a problem when I worked at Vimy Ridge. The 10 students who worked there all spoke both languages pretty well.

It was, however, a major challenge when I worked in Lower Fort Garry, because out of the 50 students who worked there in the summer, only 15 could speak French. So any time we had French-speaking visitors, they would ask for someone who was bilingual and that was the person who would take them on the tour. When I started working there, I didn't think I was at all bilingual. But I became the one responsible for those visits, because I had had the chance to improve my French skills the previous year and because I had gone to Paris the year before that. My last year there, I even gave our former Governor General a tour in French. I never would have imagined I'd be doing that when I started that job.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Fine. Thank you kindly.

I want to thank our witnesses for their comments.

We'll suspend for a couple of minutes to allow our witnesses to leave the table and then we'll reconvene in public, not in camera, for consideration of the two motions that we've been given notice for. This meeting is suspended for two minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

We are now resuming the 81st meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. The proceedings will continue in public as we discuss the two motions Ms. Michaud provided notice for.

Mr. Gourde would like to speak.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I would like the proceedings to continue in camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Very well.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Mr. Godin, the floor is yours.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

How are you supposed to ask for the opportunity to speak? I indicated to the clerk that I wanted to speak.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

According to the list, Mr. Gourde is first, Mr. Rousseau is second and you are third.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We have a motion. Don't we have to start with that?