Official Languages Committee on June 11th, 2018

[Katherine d'Entremont]

That's unfortunately not within the jurisdiction of the commissioner's office.

We conducted an investigation under our act and issued our findings. If the exam were prepared in Canada, and there were equal resources in English and French, there wouldn't be a non-compliant situation in New Brunswick or in other provinces. That's what we dare believe.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

We've heard from people from New Brunswick and Ontario who have the same problem. It is a problem across Canada. People have taken the NCLEX-RN test. When these amounts of money are invested, we want all the tools and opportunities we can possibly get.

I know the other associations want to reinstate the former test. Of course, we're also talking about a computer-based vision. Do we want to go back to a test designed on paper, whereas the future is computer-based? Have you determined whether Canada has the capacity to prepare a test that is similar to that of the Americans, that is to say, a computer-based test?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

We didn't explore that subject. We simply observed the current situation, which is inconsistent with New Brunswick's act. The decision on what steps should be taken will be the association's responsibility. However, the finding applies to New Brunswick as a result of its act, which governs the associations. The situation is still the same in the other provinces. Consequently, it will be up to the associations to make the decisions, either together or not. As we know, Quebec hasn't adopted this exam. It's hard to believe that, in 2018, we can't establish a national exam that can be done by computer.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

You made recommendations to the Province of New Brunswick, and we saw the premier's reaction. Given the role he plays, can he influence the associations? I'm wondering because the federal government always says it can't really do anything and that the associations are independent. You mentioned your role, which is to make recommendations. Ultimately, however, it's always the professional orders and associations that make the decision. Can the premier play a role in New Brunswick? If not, are the associations completely independent? Can we merely make recommendations to them?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

Yes, under section 2 of the Official Languages Act of New Brunswick, the premier is responsible for the administration of the act. He can therefore require the association to take measures to comply with the act.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Now I will turn the floor over to Mr. Lefebvre.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Ms. d'Entremont and Mr. Wagg.

You mentioned several times that there should be a standard French-language exam across Canada so that nursing students can take their exam in that language if they wish. Since you've conducted some research and prepared a report, I would like you to tell me, with regard to NCLEX-RN, if a student passes the exam, is he or she also qualified to work in both Canada and the United States?

[Marc Wagg]

I don't know whether each state operates in its own way in the United States. On the other hand, I know that the NCLEX-RN is the basic evaluation in the United States.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

If you look at the history of the exam, you see that it's American and that Canadian students previously had to take two exams: one in Canada and the other in the United States. It was all subsequently standardized so they could work on both sides of the border.

Didn't you look into that?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

No, we didn't examine that question. What interested us was whether New Brunswick's Official Languages Act had been contravened.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I understand.

[Katherine d'Entremont]

You're talking here about a labour force that moves from one province to another.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I simply wanted to emphasize that they had moved from a Canadian exam to a North American exam.

Are you familiar with the Consortium national de formation en santé, the CNFS?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

Yes.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

According to my information, that organization has developed a French-language tool to support students on the Internet.

Have you heard of it?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

Yes.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

You mentioned several times that there were no resources or material in French. This tool, which is published on the Internet, is the CNFS's resource. It began offering material and resources to students in 2015-16.

Did you touch on that point in your investigation?

[Marc Wagg]

Yes, absolutely. The survey involves approximately 250 questions on those resources, but they didn't at all concern commercial resources from the United States. They were practical questions, not exam simulations. As regards resources from the United States, the questions really reflect the NCLEX-RN. If a response is incorrect, they explain at the end why it's incorrect. The tool from Laurentian University consisted of 250 questions and answers, but it didn't include explanations or details.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

In your opinion, when Laurentian University and its group began to develop those questions, was that the start of a tool that provided resources, or was it simply inadequate, and was it necessary to start over from scratch?

[Marc Wagg]

I'm sorry, I don't know.

[Katherine d'Entremont]

We didn't say in our investigation report that there were no resources in French. We are aware that some exist. However, the quality and quantity of those resources, particularly exam simulations, were not at all the same as in English. We're not saying there's a total lack of resources in French. However, the situation is far from fair.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Who do you think should finance those materials and resources in French to ensure they are available? The professional associations, the universities, the CNFS?

There's a critical mass on the English side. People purchase these services, and it's profitable. On the French side, there are fewer of us, but we have a right to the same services. However, the absence of a commercial objective clearly makes the situation more difficult.

Who do you think should ensure that material and resources are accessible in French?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

Many organizations could make material available. The association makes its decision when it selects an exam for which there are more resources in English than in French. However, our act states, "No person shall be placed at a disadvantage." That's where the problem lies in New Brunswick. We acknowledge in our report that these resources exist. Even though the association doesn't endorse them, the fact nevertheless remains that, when it makes its decision, it can't disregard that, whether it has created the resources or not.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

That's a good answer to my question. The association therefore has an obligation to ensure they're available. Once it has decided to change exams and adopt the NCLEX-RN, for which preparatory material exists in English, it must ensure that the same resources, or comparable resources, also exist in French. Is that correct?