Official Languages Committee on Dec. 6th, 2018

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Could you tell us about the merits of the Université de Moncton? I know the formula isn't the same and that the Université de l'Ontario français wants to set up in Toronto because it would already be benefiting from an academic environment. It has submitted a plan under which it would be well located.

Could you tell us about the impact your new francophone university had on Moncton and on the Acadian community, including the Brayons.

[Raymond Théberge]

The simplest answer is that the Université de Moncton transformed Acadie. Try to imagine Acadie without the Université de Moncton. The influential figures in the Acadian community come from there. It's what has enabled Acadie to transform. Mr. Arseneault is one of many examples. Without the Université de Moncton, Acadian society would have made very little progress.

The francophones in southern Ontario don't have access to postsecondary education in their language. Barely 3% of the necessary programs are offered there. The programs are taught in Ottawa and Sudbury, but not in the south. However, the francophone population is growing significantly in the south. In my opinion, if we want to develop institutions in that part of the province, they will have to include postsecondary education institutions and sound structures.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Mr. Blaney.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you and your team for your sustained efforts, Mr. Théberge. You've raised some very interesting points that made me react.

He said no one should cite the economy or the deficit as an excuse to violate the fundamental rights of francophones outside Quebec or English-speaking Quebecers. I'm so convinced of that that I've even drawn an analogy: when there's less water in the lake, and by that I mean less money, the animals around the lake look at each other differently. Consequently, the minorities are given less. I completely agree with you that this is a leadership issue and that this is where the problem lies. I find it very hard to accept that a government can view a deficit as an adequate excuse to violate rights.

We saw this in Nova Scotia during the time of our New Democratic government. The NDP has been in power once in the history of Nova Scotia, and I hope it was the last time. Just imagine: during its mandate, the party that supposedly protects minorities abolished certain ridings with black or Acadian majorities. The former ridings were ultimately reinstated pursuant to a court decision.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

By the Liberals.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I didn't want to say it, but you force me to do it, Mr. Généreux. The NDP refused to acknowledge the harm caused to Nova Scotia's black community. It was indeed the Liberal government that followed that apologized and then did what had to be done. I'm moved by that.

I haven't asked any questions yet because I agree with you so much.

Moving on to my second point, the role a university can play, I know Mr. Blaney often talks about universities. I appreciated his question. I know that he was hoping for a certain answer and that he got it: the university is an essential institution for the survival of francophone minorities and English-speaking Quebecers; there can be no doubt about that. We also heard some good expressions that I unfortunately don't have the time to repeat.

Now I come to my question.

A few weeks ago, Ontario's commissioner, Mr. Boileau, told us about his role. I personally learned a lot. After listening to his presentation, I thought that, if I was in power, I'd like to have a commissioner at my side because he would do a lot to help me protect linguistic minority rights. Mr. Boileau told us about the importance of engaging in promotion, providing proactive protection, maintaining good relations and being a convenor. All of that is essential.

In the three or four minutes I have left, could you explain what you've done in the four areas of your own role since you took up your duties?

[Raymond Théberge]

Thank you for your question.

As you mentioned, my office has two extremely important roles to play. On the one hand, it plays a protective role by ensuring that everyone complies with the act. On the other hand, it has a promotional role. We try to play both parts equally.

With respect to protection, we've been conducting our investigations since February. We've developed a new model called the official languages capability maturity model to assist federal institutions in more effectively discharging their obligations. That model will be unveiled in 2019.

We've also conducted lengthy and elaborate consultations on modernizing the act. We've held more than 50 consultations in person across the country. We also conducted an online survey in which 4,200 respondents talked about modernization.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

When can we see the report?

[Raymond Théberge]

That'll be in the spring. A preliminary version will be published on Monday, but the final report will be issued in the spring.

In addition, we've intervened twice before the Supreme Court.

We also prepared and submitted to parliament a special report on the official languages regulations. I hope this committee will review them to determine their impact.

We've also done a lot of work to advance linguistic duality in the schools and with federal councils in the region. However, my office doesn't always have the resources it needs to do the kind of promotional work it would like to do. Over the past five years, we have managed to meet more than 7,000 students in minority and majority schools as well as many representatives of the communities, but I think we've gotten to a point where we really have to find a way to step up promotional activities to increase understanding of what duality is today, in the current context, because people are starting to forget where it all comes from. Historical memory lasts 70 to 80 years, and the act is now celebrating its fiftieth anniversary. We're starting to wonder how we can be asking these kinds of questions today. What we'd like to do first in the promotional area is put all that on the public agenda.

The last time I met with the committee, we agreed on my office's three priorities, and we're going to work on that basis in the coming years. However, we have to react to unexpected situations such as the ones that have arisen in recent weeks. I repeat, the same thing has happened in New Brunswick, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. These are things that happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you, Commissioner

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

Mr. Choquette now has the floor.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the entire team from the commissioner's office for being here today.

Commissioner, you mentioned the historical context in which we find ourselves, which seems to tend toward limiting language rights across the country. This is a problem that must be addressed. You're absolutely right to say that, although what's happening in Ontario has received a lot of media coverage, other types of erosion are occurring across the country and must also be addressed. Thank you for providing that very important detail.

You floated the idea of an official languages summit. You may of course ask the committee for any assistance you may need in organizing it. It's the premiers and ministers who must do that, but I believe the commissioners also have a role to play in it. Give us a proposal. I think we could work on something for next year. I think it would be very important. I also think the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages of Canada would be the right institution to organize it, with assistance from various governments, of course.

That being said, what's happening in Ontario is nevertheless serious. We're talking about a considerable decline in rights. I'm sure you've had occasion to communicate with Mr. Boileau, the French language services commissioner. Indeed, he was still commissioner when last we heard. What did you retain from your discussions? Do the three commissioners have a strategy or common thoughts on what's going on?

[Raymond Théberge]

Yes, I've spoken with Mr. Boileau and with Mr. Carrier from New Brunswick. What concerns us is the loss of independence. It's important for a commissioner to be independent, especially in the language rights field. An ombudsman has a particular job to do. He receives complaints from all citizens concerning many cases, but he doesn't specialize in language rights.

The commissioner's role is not merely to conduct investigations. You also have to advance the official languages in the community and in the machinery of government. That's extremely important. That's what we've been doing for 50 years. We still have a lot of work to do with the machinery of government because it ultimately provides services in French.

It's important to be independent and to be able to criticize an organization and to congratulate it where appropriate. To do that, you have to be independent. That's the aspect we've focused on.

If the Office of the French Language Services Commissioner were attached to the Office of the Ontario Ombudsman, that would be more than a commissioner's office because the two don't play the same role. Our discussions covered a lot of ground.

In Ontario it's the Legislative Assembly; here it's Parliament. The commissioner's independence must be guaranteed or else the commissioner wouldn't really be a commissioner. That's the main point we agreed on.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I'm going to continue in the same vein.

The commissioner's office at times puts cases before the courts to defend rights that have been violated. Was the commissioner's office involved in the Montfort Hospital case?

[Raymond Théberge]

Yes, former commissioners Goldblum and Adam were interveners in the Montfort Hospital case.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

In the discussions, they seem to be saying that, if they can't manage to negotiate a political or diplomatic solution to the present situation in Ontario, it would be possible to go to court. The court challenges program has now been restored. Are you considering going that route? Are you preparing for that eventuality?

[Raymond Théberge]

From what I understand, when Mr. Jolin appeared, he said he was considering all political, legal, community and even communications options.

That's a hypothesis we're formulating, but let's say we have to go to court. In that case, the commissioner's office would rely on a series of tests to decide whether it should get involved in a given case. At that stage, I would probably seek intervenor status. It's always important to proceed that way because some cases define points of law. Moreover, one of the main reasons why we go to court is to clarify a point of law. If the purpose of the lawsuit we were contemplating were to clarify points of law, it would be important for my office to seek intervenor status.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Choquette.

For the next round of questions, several members of the committee wish to speak once again. To stick with our schedule, you will have four minutes each, which will include the commissioner's answers.

Ms. Lambropoulos, you may begin.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Saint-Laurent, Lib.]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Commissioner.

What steps have you taken following what happened in Ontario? I know it's a different level of government, as you mentioned, but I'd like to know specifically what you've done.

Did you just come out and speak out against it, or did you actually speak to the actors involved?

[Raymond Théberge]

I had conversations with Monsieur Boileau, Monsieur Jolin and Monsieur Johnson. I talked to a number of parliamentarians to ask them to put aside their political allegiances to try to come up with a solution. We published an op-ed article in La Presse, Le Droit and the Ottawa Citizen, placing the Ontario situation in a broader context. I had conversations with QCGN.

The idea of the conversation I had with parliamentarians was to try to contain the situation. As I mentioned to a number of them, we want to be able to manage the situation so that it does not become more of an issue than it already is. We don't want what's happening in Ontario to influence what's happening in Quebec, for example.

Those are the kinds of things we're doing right now. We are always in conversation with parliamentarians in terms of trying to move this forward.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

If the same thing had happened in Quebec, would you take the same measures?

[Raymond Théberge]

Absolutely. My role is to support both official language communities.

The announcement that was made recently with respect to school boards is something that worries us at the office.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

That sounds good.

This is not really to do with what we've been discussing today, but part 6 of the act is something that might need some reviewing, because we know it's not necessarily being respected by all federal agencies. Can you give us some guidance on how we can change it to make it more biting? I know you've already answered this question, but I'm looking for more specific solutions.

[Raymond Théberge]

At the moment, we're still working out the kinds of recommendations we want to make with respect to part 6. Part 6 is really an issue with respect to English-speaking Quebeckers who want to work for the federal government. We're still trying to work out something in terms of how, through recruitment processes or other ways, we can try to increase the participation within the public service. It's a challenge. I don't know if legislative tools are the way to do it. We have to look at that. It's like saying that we want to increase the number of kids in this classroom, but we can't legislate it. There are other factors at play.

We're looking at that, and we will definitely be making some clearer recommendations down the road with respect to part 6.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

Okay. Thank you.