Official Languages Committee on Feb. 7th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

What I understand from the deputy minister's response is that this is more a matter for the Ontario Legislative Assembly's Commission of Internal Economy. In this case, our request should be addressed to the commission. Have I understood your comments correctly, Ms. Fougère?

[Marie-Lison Fougère]

Yes, that's right. I have no access at all to that kind of information. The request really should be addressed to the Commission of Internal Economy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Choquette.

We'll now hear from Mr. Samson, from Nova Scotia.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I, too, would like to thank the witnesses for being here today to answer our questions.

As you know, the federal government has a responsibility toward minority francophones and anglophones across Canada. We are celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Official Languages Act. There is no doubt that improvements to this legislation is needed, which the government has clearly recognized. I'm sorry for saying this, but the kind of decision the Ontario government has made has shown the weakness of the act.

I always question leadership because, in my opinion, it's a matter of leadership. Leaders must make decisions for their people, but to do that, they need to know their people.

Mr. Zegarac, I'm going to ask you some questions about certain answers you have given us, and I would appreciate it if you could be brief.

You said that numbers of projects were postponed because of the fiscal situation. Did anybody think that maybe when you make cuts, leadership is about making cuts, where cuts are able to be made, that don't disadvantage one group?

It has been clearly shown that budget cuts made at the expense of a francophone minority do much more harm than cuts in other areas because it takes several years to catch up. That's the difference.

In the Montfort Hospital case, the Ontario Court of Appeal judge recognized the importance of francophone institutions for Ontario's francophone minority in terms of language, culture and education. In other words, if we lose these institutions, it might be forever. It will take a very long time for the damage to be repaired.

There is another very important aspect. Quebec protects its institutions, and in a minority situation, institutions protect minorities. You can't make these cuts under the sole pretext that you are cutting funding by only 10%. Do you agree that cuts can cause more harm to one group than another?

[George Zegarac]

I will assume that the question is that—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

My question is simple. Can cuts across the board have a greater effect on one group than another, yes or no?

[George Zegarac]

That was not a yes or no. There's an impact, obviously, that the government considers, and these are tough decisions. They are not made lightly. They consider the impacts going forward.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you—

[George Zegarac]

Part of the decision is to look at what the impacts are across the board. These are projects that have not progressed. Therefore, the decision was not to proceed with the projects you didn't have funding for.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you. We have only six minutes.

I like the fact that you're saying that you have to look at the impacts across the board. Let's hold that thought for a second.

Deputy Minister Fougère, I want to congratulate you, first of all: you're Acadian like me, so Acadia continues to prevail. That's very important.

Deputy Minister Fougère, if I were the minister responsible for the Francophonie, and the Prime Minister or cabinet instructed me to make budget cuts in services to Francophones, I would like to believe that I would have the opportunity to present arguments on behalf of the Francophonie. I would tell them to wait a moment and ask them if they realize that this poses multiple problems.

My question is this: Did the minister meet with you to inform you of the instructions she had received and to ask you whether you had any ideas for arguments to put forward to defend the cause?

[Marie-Lison Fougère]

First of all, yes, I must say that I'm pleased to be part of the broader Acadian community.

Listen, I know nothing about the political instructions that may or may not have been given by the Premier to my minister. Those conversations are confidential, and we don't have access to them.

I can say, because it has been reiterated publicly on several occasions, that Ms. Mulroney is very committed to the Francophonie. She has already outlined some priorities, including the need to take a closer look at the French Language Services Act to modernize it after so many years. She has also called for a simplification of the designation process, so that services could be made more accessible and the task of organizations that provide services could be made easier—

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you for your response, Ms. Fougère. However, if I may, I'll continue with my questions.

We talked about the minister to determine whether she had gathered information to advocate for the francophonie in order to present the information to cabinet.

Now, we'll set this aside and look at your role. Your role as deputy minister is extremely important. If the minister doesn't ask you the questions, your role is to provide essential facts that show what will happen on the ground. Simply put, you must ask the minister whether she realizes that the cuts that she was told about concerning minorities may have other implications. Have you advised the minister to approach the federal government to obtain a little more money? In other words, even if it's 50-50 over four years, the federal government may pay 90% the first year, then 80% the second year, which will help you address the fiscal issue. You can then take over.

As deputy minister, have you given the minister possible solutions so that she can do her job? Your role is to make the minister look good. Have you given her arguments to advocate for the francophonie so that she can then bring these arguments to the premier in order to strongly advocate for the francophonie? Of course, the premier shows weak leadership when it comes to this issue, since he hasn't analyzed the impact on certain groups.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mr. Samson, I'll treat your contribution as comments. We must move on to the next speaker. The deputy minister may have the opportunity to provide a response as part of another question.

I'll give the floor to Ms. Lambropoulos.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Saint-Laurent, Lib.]

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here with us today. My questions will be about the Université de l'Ontario français.

Mr. Zegarac, you mentioned earlier that 110 students attend French primary or secondary school. Is that right?

[George Zegarac]

That's 110,000.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

Sorry, that's what I meant to say—110,000.

As well, there are about 200,000 students in immersion programs across the province. Is that number bigger or smaller than it was five years ago, let's say?

[George Zegarac]

I'd have to go back to look at the trend, but during my period there, it continued to grow. There was a huge demand for, in particular, French immersion. We continued to have demand on the French side of the school boards. Those were the investments we were making for new schools, and the investments in new places.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

Thank you very much.

Since there's a growing number of students, would I also be right to assume that the French population in Ontario is growing?

[George Zegarac]

It has grown, and in the statistics that I have, on the francophone side, yes, I believe the numbers have continued to grow.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

Do you find it fair that these students would not have access to higher education in French? I understand that you mentioned there are programs offered at different universities, and there's a French university up north, but you are saying that the need is coming from southwestern Ontario. Do you not feel that maybe these students wouldn't have access to the quality of French universities that they should have access to?

[George Zegarac]

I would say that the government has continued to invest. The government provided $31 million back in 2013-14 and put money in particular around expanded programming in the central-southwest area. That included Glendon College, to introduce new programming, and Collège Boréal. There were e-learning courses, online courses that were expanded, and we continue to invest.

As I said, there is $79 million that we continue to put into programming. Our job is to continue to work with the 10 institutions to continue to improve programming in the area. We have that dialogue with those institutions on an ongoing basis as to how to prioritize their investments to address the local demands.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

You also mentioned that it was a financial decision not to go forward with the university, yet you failed to give us the actual numbers and what the cost of the university will be in the long term. It seems it was prematurely stopped before they could even plan out the way it would look financially. I don't know if it's really based on what you were able to commit, but there was a decision as to whether or not it was a priority. That's what we're getting here, I think.

[George Zegarac]

Can I comment on that?

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos]

Sorry, that wasn't the question, so I'm going to continue. I'm from an anglophone community in Quebec, so I am from a minority community.

McGill University, which you might know of or have heard of, is one of the biggest and best universities in Canada, and English students as well as French students are able to go to that university for their education. It's a staple and it's what strengthens the English community in Quebec. The Government of Canada believes in both official languages, believes in promoting them, believes in making minority communities in all provinces stronger, and unfortunately this decision has taken away from that. Can you comment?

[George Zegarac]

I would comment that the government has stated its commitment to enhancing and working with French communities to address post-secondary demands in terms of services, but it has to have a sustainable fiscal solution. You can't spend money that you don't have. Our minister has spoken to the fact that she would continue to work with Minister Mulroney to look at the needs in those communities and continue to look at using the dollars that we currently have, and when the fiscal situation improves, they would reconsider and move forward on timing.

To your question on the planning dollars and not knowing, that's why we have a planning committee. They are working on it, but as I said they don't know how many students they would undertake. They have projections, and we would continue to work with the board over that period of time. I think the government is committed to continuing to serve the francophone community and committed to its having funding. It has requested enhanced funding from the federal government that has been frozen for 10 years. Provincial and territorial governments are short $58 million now. We're continuing to have all of these dialogues to see what we can do to enhance the services for our francophone communities.