Official Languages Committee on Feb. 14th, 2017

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

That is important.

We have data that allow us to determine how many children attend elementary and secondary schools. What's missing at this time, as you said quite rightly, are data on parents who went to French-language primary schools. We cannot obtain that statistic. Nor do we have statistics on the number of parents who would like their children to attend French schools. We can't measure the need. Of course we want to provide that service, but we can't measure the demand. It would be very interesting to measure the demand for teaching in both languages in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lefebvre.

Mr. Choquette now has the floor.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Corbeil, thank you for being here.

The issue of rights holders is extremely important for the committee and for the vitality of minority official language communities. There have been a lot of issues around that recently, for instance trials in British Columbia concerning access to quality schools.

Recently, there was an opinion piece signed by Mark C. Power and other experts entitled: Je suis compté, donc je suis! [I've been counted, therefore I am!]. In their opinion, many rights holders are not being counted. In fact, only half of them are reputed to be counted.

In your opinion, the census counts a lot of people, as compared to the 2006 Survey on the Vitality of Official Language Minorities.

Let's begin with that aspect. How did you come to believe that so many rights holders were not counted?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

What we said is that the 2006 survey was accurately measuring the number of rights holders in official language minorities. The survey counted all the parents outside Quebec whose mother tongue was French. French was either the only language or one among others. In addition, it counted all the people who, not having French or English as a mother tongue, stated that French was their primary official language spoken.

That was our population base. We asked that population a host of questions under five modules. We estimated the number of rights holder parents, as I mentioned earlier.

I don't want to call into question those feelings or statements, but when people say that Statistics Canada only counts a small part or only 50% of rights holders, I would like to know how they measure or come up with that percentage. I have seen all sorts of percentages and I still see some regularly. There should just be a connection with reality to see how the percentage was obtained.

That's all I have to say about that.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

In 2006, the Survey on the Vitality of Official-Language Minorities was conducted, which you have compared with the census. Based on the survey, which was restricted, after all—it was not Canada-wide—but it targeted some—

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

It actually was a Canada-wide survey that included all the provinces. There was a sample of about 50,000 people taken from official language minorities, not from the entire Canadian population.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Basically, if we don't have a census asking all the required questions, we will never know the exact pool of people who might be considered rights holders.

There was the article that I just mentioned, but other people and official languages stakeholders also commented on the topic. They said that two other categories of rights holders still need to be determined. However, is there really a need to ask 10 other questions to identify the rights holders in those two other categories? Perhaps there's an easier way. You're the expert in the matter. Can you perhaps tell me why those 10 questions are required?

The second category includes the parents who did a large part of their primary schooling in a French-language school. As for the third category, it is for parents with a child attending a French-language school.

Why are so many questions needed to gather those two pieces of information?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

That is a great question.

I will quickly answer by saying that what seems obvious often isn't to the people surveyed and to the respondents.

The first question was to find out whether the people did part or all of their primary schooling in French. Clearly, if section 23 is applied, we must also—although I'm not a lawyer—find out whether the people went to primary school in French for three months and whether that makes them eligible under section 23. So we must determine whether it is more than half, about half, or less than half and, whether the French-language schooling took place in Canada because, clearly, the question must be asked.

Another question was to find out in which type of program the people were enrolled. If it is a French immersion program, that does not meet the requirements of section 23. In addition, the idea was to find out whether it was a regular program of instruction in French. Another question was whether it was a French-language, bilingual or immersion school. That's the question that was asked. Another question was whether their children went to a French-language school. We asked because, sometimes, children are registered, but they don't attend a school. So a distinction needs to be made in that case. The question was whether the child was actually enrolled in a French-language school and whether the school was primary or secondary. The other question was whether the children attended an English-language school or a French-language school and whether they had brothers or sisters who had attended a primary or secondary school in Canada.

You see how many questions are needed to get the full picture. If everyone understood, we could ask the children whether their parents are rights holders. That would be simple and settled. You see the host of questions that may seem simple. However, it is not as simple as that for respondents to understand the distinction.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Corbeil.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you.

We will now turn to Mr. Arseneault.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That was a great question. Thank you for your answers and for your wisdom, Mr. Corbeil. I understand that something very simple may become very complicated when we start thinking about it and wanting to ask questions.

I will move very quickly because I just have six minutes. The chair is very strict about keeping track of the allotted time.

In 1990, the Mahe decision showed all the people demanding that schools be built to respect the rights of official language minorities in majority settings that it was important to count the people who could have those rights. It was important to find out the exact number. I don't have the citation from the Supreme Court, but I may be able to find it. Actually, it's where the number of people warrant it.

At Statistics Canada, how does the Mahe decision affect you? Today, we are looking at a very specific situation. That's what we want to know. Statistics Canada provides a snapshot of what Canada is all about, with the specific objective of measuring the state of the population, but not necessarily to address the arguments inherent in the Mahe case. Since that judgment was rendered, do you use it to count the adults and children who might benefit from French-language schools in majority settings?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I mentioned earlier that, in the national census tests of 1993 and 1998, Statistics Canada conducted testing on the language of instruction. The results were not perfect and led to other questions. We have formed partnerships with the federal government departments on an ongoing basis. It was actually as a result of the census tests that discussions ensued for Statistics Canada to conduct a survey on the vitality of official-language minorities, such as the one conducted in 2006, specifically to address that need. Clearly, there were a lot more questions. There were various themes related to the languages in use in the public space. It was one of the main objectives. That's how Statistics Canada was able to answer the questions related to section 23.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Since I have little time, I will address the issue of the legal workings.

Earlier, you said that cabinet is basically the one that decides the content or the changes to the content of the questionnaire. Is that correct?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Yes.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

When you say cabinet, are you referring to a minister in particular or to the entire cabinet?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

It's the entire cabinet.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you.

Here's my next question. Do we have enough time by the next census to test all the questions that would specifically meet the requirements of section 23? In your view, do the Statistics Canada experts have time to do it?

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

As I mentioned earlier, the national census test and the consultations will start next fall and, in 2018, a national test will take place to check the various questions recommended.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

How much time do I still have, Mr. Chair?

You are showing me three minutes? Okay.

I understood that a first test would take place in 2018, but that doesn't mean that the results will be conclusive.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

Of course, we'll have to wait for the results of the tests to know whether, yes or no, it's—

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

No, what I want to know specifically is whether you believe that, in 2021, regardless of the situation, the next census form will include specific questions complying with paragraphs 23(1)(a), 23(1)(b) and 23(1)(c) of the charter.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

I cannot comment on that, given that it will all depend on the assessments.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Does your agency consider there's an urgency in complying with the provisions of the charter?

We are talking about calculating the total number of rights holders for francophone schools and about relying on the Mahe decision.

[Jean-Pierre Corbeil]

What I'm saying is that it will depend on the assessment, the recommendations we'll be making and the decision the government will make.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

It's a constitutional obligation. I'm sure your office knows that.