Evidence of meeting #46 for Official Languages in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was questions.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-Pierre Corbeil  Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada
Rodrigue Landry  Professor Emeritus and Associate Fellow, Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities, As an Individual

Noon

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

There is an important distinction to be made between French immersion programs and minority schools.

Previously, we were asked why we did not ask people if they were francophone. I can guarantee that, sometimes, you would not really want the answer. Honestly, you can get certain information from the way in which those questions are interpreted. For example, according to the results of the survey on minorities, 50% of the respondents went to a minority school, whereas 15% went to an immersion school. It is also true that, among those whose children went to English school, 40% would like to have sent their children to an immersion program or to a minority school. You can see that there is a complexity in the way the question is asked.

Noon

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

But what are we afraid of, Mr. Corbeil? Are we afraid of the truth? What you are telling me is that we do not ask questions because we don't want to know the answers.

Noon

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

I am not saying that we do not ask questions. I am saying that questions that appear simple can turn out to be a whole lot more complicated.

Noon

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

You were saying that it is a double-edged sword. So one edge is positive and the other may potentially be negative. What is the other edge you are talking about? What are we afraid of? Personally, if I asked people a simple question about whether they would like to send their children to a French minority school, and 250,000 people said that they would like that and it would be really good, I would try to provide them with those services.

Are we afraid that we might get answers that are going to force governments to provide services to people who otherwise would not be asking for them?

Noon

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

No, but I can answer another way, by giving you an example from health care. It's an area we have been doing a lot of work on. People say that, in 2006, we had a picture of the demand, but we do not have a picture of the real demand. In terms of asking people if they want services in their own language, we actually did gather that information, but it is not so simple. In some provinces, there's a small fraction of the population who indeed want to have health care services in French. But given the few services available, they answered that all they want is the services. That's it. Period.

So my answer is that the questions are not that simple. We really would like to ask very simple questions in the census. However, we have to understand that people could easily interpret that question in different ways. Is the question meant to find out whether they want to send their children to an immersion program, to a minority school, or whether they are interested in them learning a second language? You see that there is a whole range of possible concepts and ideas.

Noon

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

I am going to turn myself into Darrell Samson.

You are responsible for languages, are you not?

Noon

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Noon

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

We have health, we have the economy, we have all kinds of other things. Earlier, Mr. Arseneault wanted to know what the priority was, or who decides the priorities. Basically, the government determines the order of priority for the questions. When you submit the final version of the form, you have already chosen the questions. The government then says whether it agrees and, if it does, it rubber-stamps it all and you can proceed.

But does a priority committee have to be established?

Noon

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

After the census tests, of course, Statistics Canada's senior management evaluates all the results and recommendations very carefully. Then there are discussions with the various government departments.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

Mr. Corbeil, before we finish, I have two points I would like to clarify.

You mentioned surveys. Does a survey have the same value as the census?

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

That depends on the survey we are dealing with.

In the case of the survey on the vitality of official-language minorities, since it used a sample, it was possible to make estimates over quite a wide geographical area, but perhaps not on such a specific geographical scale as the census provided; that allowed us to find out what the situation was in the municipalities and in the school boards.

By contrast, the elementary-secondary education survey is a complete tally of all children in all provinces and territories, down to the level of each school board. It counted all children and teenagers registered in a school.

There is a major difference between a survey conducted using samples and a survey that collects extensive administrative data from each province and territory.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

What kind of survey was it?

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

Are you talking about the one in 2006?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

In 2006?

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

In 2006, it was a survey—

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

No, it was in 2016.

We're talking about 2016 and 2021.

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistic Division, Statistics Canada

Jean-Pierre Corbeil

A complete census of the population was conducted in 2016, and will be done again in 2021. The 2006 survey was a post-census survey, meaning that a sample of official languages minorities was drawn from the 2006 census.

Still, it was a sample, and the questionnaire was very long. It took 45 minutes to complete. It really had to be done with just a sample and not the entire population.

However, the Elementary-Secondary Education Survey collects administrative data annually and is based on a complete census of all youth enrolled in schools in Canada.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

That's excellent.

Thank you very much, Mr. Corbeil, for your appearance and your remarks this morning. They have been extremely helpful for the committee.

We're going to suspend the meeting for five minutes before we hear from the next witness.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

We are resuming the meeting.

Welcome, Mr. Landry.

Rodrigue Landry is a professor emeritus and associate fellow with the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities.

We are pleased that you were able to appear before the committee, despite the weather outside. You have about 10 minutes for your presentation. We will then move on to a period of questions and comments from committee members.

Go ahead, Mr. Landry.

12:15 p.m.

Rodrigue Landry Professor Emeritus and Associate Fellow, Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities, As an Individual

Thank you for the invitation, Mr. Chair.

I informed the clerk yesterday that my presentation might exceed 10 minutes, if that's not too much trouble. Still, I'll try to be as brief as possible.

My presentation will be in French and will cover seven points. However, I can answer questions in both official languages.

The first point is that language is only as strong as the society that supports it. I say that to show that the government can really do something to support minorities. I have been studying francophone minorities for over 40 years now, and I have been the director of the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities. I am currently retired. The subject that your committee is studying is very important. I will be pleased to share with you some aspects related to these issues.

Let's go back to the first point, namely, the fact that language is only as strong as the society that supports it. I'm talking here about players. There are three main categories of players who can really act on the language. The first is members of the linguistic community themselves. In this case, the demographic does a lot. The number, the proportion, the territorial concentration, the family structure—whether it is endogamous or exogamous—migration and immigration are determining factors. Generally, the lower the concentration, the stronger the exogamy. Exogamy is what we call mixed marriage.

If you look at the sociological literature in this regard, you'll find that the normal tendency is to consider exogamy as one of the best sociological indicators of the full integration of ethnic groups into the dominant society. What I want to try to show you is that Canadian francophonie is an exception to this rule, or that it is at least very resistant to this strong trend. I will come back to this later. The role of this first category of players—the members of the linguistic community—is to pass the mother tongue on to the next generation, which I call “primary language socialization”.

The second category of players concerns the institutions that the linguistic minority may have. This is called “institutional completeness”, a term proposed to us by Raymond Breton, an Ontario researcher. The role of the institutions is to enable the presence of the use of language in the public sphere. If there were no institutions, we would only speak a language to play cards on Saturday nights with friends. In this case, the main player is civil society, which includes those who run the institutions and all the organizations that work on promoting language, culture, governance and so on. Often, civil society exercises leadership over community members.

However, research shows that there are two major distinct categories of institutions. The first allows an extension of primary socialization, meaning that it gives real socialization to the language. I'm talking about schools, the media and the language of work. I am less sure about the language of work because I haven't studied it as much. However, these are aspects that have an impact on people's identity.

The second category of institutions increases the status of the language. This is what I call secondary socialization. The effect is on the perception of the minority group's status and vitality. These include public services in the minority language, commercial and public signage, and all the services that a government may provide. Socialization isn't continuous. These are supplementary services that give a very powerful message about the group's vitality.

One point I want to emphasize is that school is the foundation of institutional completeness and civil society. In this sense, it is the most important institution. It is also very important with respect to identity transmission. Research shows that it is as important as family and social networks.

The third and final category of players is the government and, of course, the citizens who can support the government in its policies. The government's role is to offer legitimacy to linguistic groups. A government can therefore officially recognize language, institute individual and collective language rights, implement language policies—sometimes referred to as recognition policies—and offer services in the minority language. These are all things the government can do. Active offer is very important for the minority group because of their psychology, what some researchers have called status insecurity.

The perception that their language is recognized and legitimized by the state is fundamental to minority communities. It's a bit like a right to exist. The interaction between these three categories of players shapes the image that the group has of itself and influences its projects as a group. In sociology, we call this “collective identity”. When one component weakens, it weakens the others.

This can be the beginning of a vicious circle that leads to linguistic assimilation. The literature often talks about language revitalization. A combination of positive actions that engage all three categories of players—often under the leadership of civil society and even the government—can create a virtuous circle and growth of vitality.

The second aspect that I will now address touches on the Canadian francophonie outside Quebec. Very quickly, I would say that there are strong trends, including a decreasing proportion of the francophone population and a declining rate of French linguistic attraction. Some researchers speak of a gravitational effect of English on all other languages in the world.

In Canada, francophones live close to the epicentre of this gravitational force. The rate of linguistic attraction—what Statistics Canada calls the “linguistic continuity rate”—is positive if more people speak a language more often at home than there are people with that language as their mother tongue. Among francophones outside Quebec, the rate is negative, meaning less than one. The ratio was 0.61 in 2011, which means that barely 60% of all those who can speak French, compared to those who have it as their mother tongue, do so. However, among anglophones in Quebec—and this is a fine example of the attraction of English—because of the strong attraction of English in North America and not necessarily in Quebec, and despite the strength of French in Quebec, the rate is positive and relatively high. It is 1.29. So in Quebec, 30% more people use English more often at home than there are English speakers with English as their mother tongue.

In addition, there is a third trend that is a weak contribution of francophone immigration and a clear preference of allophones outside Quebec for English. Outside Quebec, the language shifts of allophones are 98% to English.

Another trend is the growing rate of exogamy. At the last census in 2011—because the results for 2016 are not yet available—67% of the children of parents entitled to education in French under paragraph 23(1)(a)—this is the only data we have—came from exogamous parents.

In addition, there is low transmission of the mother tongue associated with exogamy. If both parents are francophone, the French mother tongue transmitted is 91%. If the francophone parent lives in an exogamous situation, it drops to 29%. I do want to make an important point in that regard. Despite this disappointing result that I've just mentioned—as I said earlier, francophones are an exception to the rule—we see that the transmission of French as a mother tongue with francophone exogamous parents has been growing since 1971. The situation has already been considerably worse. For example, between 1991 and 2011, French mother-to-child transmission in an exogamous situation increased from 23% to 39%, a 69% increase in 20 years. For French-speaking fathers, it rose from 10% to 19%, an increase of 90%.

French-language schools could therefore contribute a great deal to this growth, especially if recruitment was increased—and I will come back to the subject soon—and offered services from early childhood.

I will now move on to other trends.

We are seeing a low attendance rate for French-language schools. According to the post-census survey, which Mr. Corbeil mentioned earlier, 88% of children with endogamous parents attended French-language schools, and that drops to 34% for children with exogamous parents. This gives an attendance rate close to 50%, but it is not known if that includes the total population of eligible children. It is therefore difficult to ensure that the rate is really 50%. However, according to the statistics presented, it is 55% at the primary level, 44% at the secondary level and decreases to 40% at the post-secondary level.

One of our studies showed that 64% of Grade 12 students enrolled in French-language schools planned to pursue post-secondary education in French. It is important to keep in mind that among the 50% of students who attend English-language school, 31% are enrolled in a French immersion program—we have to wonder if they know the difference—and that 41% of the parents of these children would have preferred the French-language school. This means that we are still far from meeting the needs. In addition, the population is aging and there is an exodus from rural areas and strong urbanization. I will stop there on major trends. It was simply to give a quick picture of the situation.

Here is the third aspect. The main challenge facing francophone communities outside Quebec is the early childhood sector and the recruitment of its school population. This was very well understood by Stéphane Dion—whom you know well—in the first Action Plan for Official Languages, in 2003. In my opinion, as a researcher and someone who works in the francophonie, it is the best Action Plan for Official Languages that has been produced. This plan aimed to recruit 80% of children of rights holders.

The current government's objective is not clear. Besides, we don't even know if it has an objective. However, the objective in the first Action Plan for Official Languages in 2003 was to recruit 80%. So we were ready to work on that. The importance of the early childhood challenge is also reflected in the 2016 report of the Commissioner of Official Languages, entitled “Early Childhood: A Vitality of Francophone Minority Communities”. It even recommends the practice of raising awareness among rights holders.

Exogamy remains a challenge for the transmission of the French language, but demographically—and people don't always think of it—it also has a hidden potential. Theoretically, the number of children of rights holders doubles with exogamy. Just compare 100% exogamy to 100% endogamy. If the two groups have the same number of children, there will be twice as many children of rights holders. There is a positive aspect to that in terms of demographics, but as far as the recognition of the French language is concerned, it is also a challenge.

A large percentage of francophone parents are anglicized before forming an English-speaking couple, as Jean-Pierre Corbeil's research has shown. However, it is not known to what extent these “rights holder” parents may wish to re-establish contact with the French-speaking community by enrolling their children in French-language schools, especially if they are aware of their rights. A study I conducted on Prince Edward Island revealed that, for up to two-thirds of parents who could have attended French school, it was because their grandparents were Francophone. So, when they knew that it was a right that was passed down from generation to generation, several of them chose the French school.

There is also a need for awareness among rights holders. I call it “social marketing”. No school curriculum in Canada produces better bilingualism in children than French-language schools. I'll say it again. No school curriculum ...

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

Mr. Landry, I must interrupt you.

The interpreters would ask that you slow down a bit.

12:25 p.m.

Professor Emeritus and Associate Fellow, Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities, As an Individual

Rodrigue Landry

I'll lose some of my time.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Denis Paradis

We'll give you more.

12:25 p.m.

Professor Emeritus and Associate Fellow, Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities, As an Individual

Rodrigue Landry

Okay. Thank you.

No school programs in Canada produce better bilingualism among children than French-language schools. However, that seems to be a well-kept secret. In the 1990s and early 2000s, our research showed that, according to many parent rights-holders—up to 64% in Nova Scotia—the ideal program for fostering their child's bilingualism would be split 50-50 between French and English. Mathematically speaking, that is a balanced equation. People thought it should lead to a higher level of bilingualism, but we call that social naivety. People are forgetting that a society is taking care of the English. In reality, the best program would be provided solely in French, with the exception of English courses. In Nova Scotia, for instance, it is well known that children attending French school speak English better than anglophones.

Another point I think it is important to highlight is the fact that exogamy is not the causal factor of children's linguistic development. The key factor is the language dynamic chosen by the parents. When the parents are well informed, they can do it.

Only two very simple principles must be applied to achieve what we call additive bilingualism, a concept that originated in the 1970s and is still in use. There are two types of bilingualism: additive bilingualism and subtractive bilingualism. When the second language is learned without the first language being lost, we are talking about additive bilingualism, and subtractive bilingualism occurs when the first language is lost. So the idea here is to strive for additive bilingualism.

The following two principles are simple, but they are of course a bit more difficult to apply. That said, applying them is feasible, and many parents do it. In the first case, each parent speaks to the child in their own language. In the second case, it is a matter of increasing as much as possible the use of the minority language in the family. For example, we may be talking about lecturing your children in French, sending them to a francophone kindergarten and then to a minority school. Some of our research focuses on the cases where the parents respect what is referred to as Frenchness in the home and at school, meaning the optimal use of French and English in the family and at school.

When a parent in an exogamous family often speaks to their child in French and the child attends a French-language school, his or her French-language proficiency and francophone identity are equivalent to those of children whose both parents are francophone. In addition, they maintain a strong anglophone identity, as is appropriate, since they have an anglophone parent and English-language proficiency similar to that of anglophones. As I said earlier regarding Nova Scotia, they sometimes do better in English than anglophones. That is surprising, but there are theories to explain this phenomenon.

My fourth point is that the current census does not make a full enumeration of rights-holders and their children possible. It underestimates the number of parents whose mother tongue is French. This has to do with the fact that multiple answers are treated as more of a problem than as a Canadian reality.

I have read Statistics Canada's methodology documents. However, I found that they were more interested in solving the puzzle of determining whether individuals can indeed have two mother tongues. In the latest census, for instance, you can see that the question on the mother tongue comes after the question on knowledge of official languages. Next is the question on language use at home. Multiple answers have a deterrent effect. Answering the questions yourselves could help you see that. Answer options are in the singular. They include French and English, but “other language” is in the singular.

Moreover, the two other questions can have multiple answers, but that's not the case for the mother tongue. I could talk about this for a long time, but the fact remains that, according to the statistics, there are more multiple answers if the question is isolated than if it follows those two questions. I believe that the instructions are flawed. Here is what Statistics Canada says regarding this question:

For a person who learned two languages at the same time in early childhood, report the language this person spoke most often at home before starting school.

Anyone who has studied exogamy knows that the language of the majority dominates.

However, the child can still talk to one parent in French and to the other parent in English. I could give you examples of several children in my family who do that. Often, in the home, English dominates, but people opt for French school and manage very well. Rights-holders are being lost simply because speaking the second language equally often is a very restrictive criterion, as worded in the census:

Report more than one language if all languages are spoken equally often.

That's another very restrictive instruction. As a researcher who has examined this question, I find that it makes no sense on a socio-linguistic level. I had never really noticed it before, but I find it restrictive.

The census goes in a similar direction by stating the following:

For a child who has not yet learned to speak, report the language spoken most often to this child at home.

Once again, if the mother is anglophone and she is the parent staying at home, it is clear that the child will learn English, but that does not mean they will not learn the other language.

I will not go over the three other points, since you have discussed them already.

The current census does not enumerate anglophone and allophone parents who received a significant part of their primary level education in the language of the minority. It also does not enumerate anglophone and allophone parents with at least one child whose education has been provided in the language of the minority. Those are the two other criteria set out in section 23. You know as well as I do that the two criteria in section 23 that are not measured by the Statistics Canada census are the only ones that apply in Quebec.

I will now move on to my fifth point.

A post-censal survey on official language minorities is very useful—and I don't want to take anything away from its usefulness—but it cannot replace the census in enumerating rights-holders and their children.

As Mr. Corbeil himself said, it is a survey. It was completed by 20% of individuals who had filled out the long-form census. That 20% is rarely a good representation of language minorities when the figures are low. To use a scientific term, I would say that the sample was not stratified for official languages. There are already all kinds of problems.

I chaired Statistics Canada's advisory committee for the 2006 post-censal survey. In that survey, only the provinces of Quebec, Ontario and New Brunswick had samples for the regions. They are indeed very large regions, as Mr. Corbeil himself said. For the other provinces, the results were only reliable at the provincial level, and the three territories were treated as a single unit. We could not even tell what the situation was for each individual territory.

What Mr. Corbeil has not said is that anglophones outside of Quebec and Quebec francophones, who are rights-holders under paragraph 23(1)(b) or subsection 23(2) of the charter, as well as francophones who were not among the 20% used for the sample, cannot be enumerated by the post-censal survey because they were not surveyed. Therefore, only persons with French as their first official language and allophones were part of that survey.

Given that fact, such a survey cannot enumerate rights-holders and does not make it possible to reliably estimate their numbers in a small region such as an RDC—a regional development corporation—or a school zone.

I will now move on to the sixth point.

The enumeration of rights-holders is very important owing to the critical role schools play in the vitality of linguistic minorities. It would help school boards and governments plan better with respect to many aspects of education in the minority's schools.

I will list some of those aspects: identification of potential clients; awareness-raising and recruitment campaigns; calculation of the enrolment rate in minority schools; number and percentage of the school population in English-language programs and French immersion programs; planning of real property requirements in terms of establishments, physical facilities and renovations; planning of human resources requirements, such as the number of teachers for educational training; interventions related to minorities' rights to obtain new schools. This last point is important and has been tackled in many trials related to language rights.

As for the last aspect, I will focus on the importance of funding research on rights-holders owing to recent situations I have experienced. I would like to point out that no one has analyzed census data related to francophones outside Quebec since the 2006 census. At the time, I was the executive director of the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities, CIRLM, and we analyzed the 2001 and 2006 censuses at the request of the Commission nationale des parents francophones, which had obtained financial support from Canadian Heritage.

CIRLM recently proposed, in partnership with the Commission nationale des parents francophones and the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, to analyze the results of the 2011 and 2016 censuses—with the latter soon to be published—but Canadian Heritage refused to fund such a project. The department says that its policy is not to fund research. I think that sort of a policy is problematic because if Canadian Heritage cannot fund these kinds of analyses, who will do it?

I will stop here.