Official Languages Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 18 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages. The committee is meeting on its study of Challenges of the Parliamentary Interpretation Service in the Context of the COVID-19 Pandemic.

Madam Clerk, are there any replacements? Are there any members in the room?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Josée Harrison]

There are no committee members in the room, but there is a replacement, Mr. Mazier, who is replacing Mr. Williamson this evening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

This is intended for those participating virtually.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted, as was mentioned by Speaker Rota on September 29, 2020.

Members and witnesses may speak in the language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either floor, English or French.

Before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference.

A reminder that all comments by members should be addressed through the Chair.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly.

Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of headsets with a boom is mandatory for everyone participating remotely.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise the chair. Please note we may need to suspend for a few minutes as we need to ensure all members are able to participate fully.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

In the first part, we will start off with Mr. Yvon Barrière, Executive Vice-President, Quebec Region, of the Public Service Alliance of Canada.

Mr. Barrière, you will have seven and a half minutes to make your presentation, which will be followed by questions from members of the committee.

I would like to inform all witnesses and members of the committee that I will tell you when you have one minute of speaking time remaining. If you see the red card, your time is over, and you must wrap up in the following 5 to 10 seconds.

With that, ladies and gentlemen, I will invite Mr. Barrière to take the floor.

[Yvon Barrière, Regional Executive Vice-President, Quebec Region, Public Service Alliance of Canada]

Mr. Chair, members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, first I want to thank you for inviting me to talk about the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the government's ability to deliver information in both official languages.

The Public Service Alliance of Canada, or PSAC, represents more than 200,000 workers across the country and around the world. Our members work in federal departments and agencies, Crown corporations, security businesses,universities, casinos, community service agencies, indigenous communities and airports. In addition to its head office in Ottawa, PSAC has 23 regional offices. We represent nearly 50% of federal public servants.

The COVID-19 pandemic has brought its share of challenges for our members. Overnight, many of them had to start working from home, and their interactions were reduced to virtual ones only. Our members went above and beyond to provide emergency services to Canadians in a very short period of time. A specific example of this is the Canada emergency response benefit, which has helped thousands of people and was developed quickly thanks in part to our members' hard work.

From the outset, it is important to recognize that all federal public servants have the right to speak and work in the official language of their choice. While this may be true on paper, inequality between English and French persists in our institutions, and the pandemic has exacerbated the many existing problems. I would even go so far as to say that systemic discrimination is deeply rooted in the federal government. It is taken for granted that English comes first and French second.

As you know, in his most recent report, the Commissioner of Official Languages, Raymond Théberge, found that there are gaps in the government's French-language communications during emergencies, as is currently the case with the COVID-19 pandemic. He stressed the need to modernize the Official Languages Act, which turned 50 last year, and to thoroughly review it. Otherwise, we will continue to face the same problems.

PSAC fully agrees with Commissioner Théberge: we must absolutely modernize the Official Languages Act.

The pandemic has made these gaps even wider. Most people, who now work from home and interact only online, have complained that managers often do not send important information to employees in both official languages. I have seen this myself. The pandemic has also made it harder for our members to work in French. A glaring example is that Zoom and Teams meetings are often held in English, and, unfortunately, simultaneous interpretation services are seldom available.

Without face-to-face meetings to break the ice, language barriers are hindering effective communication now more than ever before. Often, francophones feel like they must speak in their second language so that their colleagues do not fall behind, either because the interpretation is not available or not delivered quickly enough. Conversely, anglophones do not feel comfortable enough to speak in French for fear of being judged. There are two important points here: first, the lack of information offered in both languages to employees and, second, the absence of tools and dialogue spaces to facilitate the use of both languages, especially since people are working from home.

If we want a dynamic, diverse and bilingual federal public service, we must create an environment where employees are both able and encouraged to work in the language of their choice. The fact that people are working from home should galvanize the government into taking action and improving bilingualism in the federal public service, thereby enabling us to provide better services to the public and ensure that everyone feels comfortable working in the language of their choice.

The federal government has a duty to provide the tools to do so. The Canadian public service should be an employer of choice that encourages bilingualism. We must never forget that there are French speakers and bilingual people in every province and territory of Canada, not only in Quebec.

These people have the right to work in the language of their choice, and the public has the right to receive services in English and French. It is crucial that federal employees have access to communications and documents in English and French. That applies equally to Canadians who receive services. The pandemic makes this a health and safety issue.

Improving bilingualism must absolutely be a priority for the federal government. One of the most concrete examples of the government's inaction on official languages in the public service is the bilingualism bonus. Bilingual positions today pay a bonus of $800 per year, an amount that has not been reviewed since the 1990s. We have pressure the government to review this policy many times, but it has always refused to budge. Worse yet, in 2019, the government even suggested eliminating the bilingualism bonus, adding insult to injury.

Bilingual public servants who receive this ridiculous bonus are increasingly inclined to reject it as a result of the extra work it entails. I repeat: we are talking about 25 cents an hour here, after tax. Bilingualism should be recognized as a superior-quality skill, and there are solutions for improving French's standing in the public service. The bilingualism bonus must be increased in order to recognize the value of working in both official languages.

PSAC is also asking the government to create a bonus to recognize and compensate employees who speak or write in an indigenous language for work purposes. Since Parliament has already taken legislative action to further the recognition of indigenous languages, the federal government, in its capacity as an employer, should lead by example and formally recognize the contribution of its employees who use indigenous languages for work purposes by offering them a bilingualism bonus.

There is also a need for more language training to encourage English-and French-speaking workers to develop their second language.

In addition, Treasury Board must stop outsourcing language training and focus on creating its own training program made up of public servants who focus on the specific requirements of the federal public service.

The government must also acknowledge that the pandemic has made it tremendously difficult to access information in both official languages and should work on correcting the situation immediately.

In closing, I would like to say that I have high hopes for Minister Joly's bill, which is a step in the right direction. That being said, much work remains to be done to introduce legislation and a system that are solidly established and well respected.

Thank you for listening. I will be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barrière.

We will now go to questions and answers, which are divided into six-minute periods. As you are the only witness here, please go ahead and answer the questions put to you without waiting for me to intervene.

I now turn the floor over to the vice-chair of our committee, Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Barrière, welcome to the Standing Committee on Official Languages. Before I became a member, I was fortunate to be a federal public servant at a regional office in Quebec City.

I was going to say that your testimony was shocking, but I should say instead that it was very emphatic. You mentioned systemic discrimination against francophone employees in Canada's public service. I'd like to ask you to tell us more on that subject. After all, that's some strong language.

Is that reflected in your situation?

[Yvon Barrière]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Blaney.

I remember very clearly that, in another life, you were a federal public servant on the south shore facing Quebec City. I have heard about you. Don't worry though; it was relatively positive.

I can definitely cite some examples of discrimination. There are a lot of situations in the federal public service. I mentioned at the outset that we very often feel that the federal public service focuses first and foremost on anglophones and then on minorities.

The current situation is definitely unfair for francophone public servants. I'm not just talking about those living in Quebec, but also those in the national capital region and New Brunswick, and about two persons from the community of Saint-Boniface, near Winnipeg, Manitoba. There are several situations in which francophone public servants undeniably feel they're at a disadvantage.

Staffing is just one of many examples. If you look at staffing notices, you'll see many bilingual and unilingual anglophone senior management positions but no unilingual francophone positions. Many examples of that kind are indicative of what francophone federal employees experience day after day. They always feel they have to force themselves to speak English either to avoid slowing the work down or to make themselves clearly understood. Their constant concern is for efficiency, not their language, which they would like to be able to speak.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I see.

If I understand you correctly, francophone federal employees are like second-class employees, since senior management positions, as you just said, are English-only or bilingual.

Mr. Chair, I found our witness's testimony very interesting. I wonder whether it might assist us in our ongoing study of the situation of French in Canada. I'm bringing that to your attention. We can discuss it later.

Thank you, Mr. Barrière. I want to return the favour. I have the greatest esteem for the federal public service and its representatives, particularly its francophone representatives.

Today I learned that Jean-Yves Duclos, President of the Treasury Board and member for Quebec City, had suffered a pulmonary embolism. If he is listening to us, I would like to tell him that we wish him a quick recovery and that the thoughts of all parliamentarians are with him.

I'm often mistaken for him when I go cross-country skiing because we may have a similar physique.

Mr. Barrière, when we had Mr. Duclos here in committee, he told us he had tried to correct these deficiencies during the pandemic. You said these gaps or this discrimination have been worsened by the pandemic.

Have you felt that government authorities, the Treasury Board in particular, have tried to rectify matters? Or have their efforts merely been in vain?

I'd like to hear what you have to say about that. I mustn't have a lot of speaking time left, but we have an indulgent chair.

[Yvon Barrière]

First of all, considering I was somewhat short of time earlier, I would like to join with Mr. Blaney in saying that my thoughts go out to Mr. Duclos as well. He is, after all, my boss, indirectly that is, since I represent a lot of public servants.

As regards those vain efforts, I would say that some departments have been extremely proactive. I don't mean to be judgmental, but some departments have been extremely vigilant and have offered to provide interpretation services for meetings conducted in both official languages. However, others have done nothing and have asked people receiving the $800 bonus to cooperate. In many instances, the assistants of certain managers have provided translations and summaries as they were required. It really depends on the departments.

You mentioned that francophones didn't have access to senior management positions. I don't necessarily agree because, in those specific cases, candidates at least have to have a minimum level of bilingualism.

Thank you, Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Gentlemen, I also want to thank you for your kind words for Mr. Duclos. He is now back home and feeling better. This is a reminder that we must be cautious during this pandemic.

The next six minutes will be for Ms. Lattanzio, who will speak to Mr. Barrière

Go ahead, Ms. Lattanzio.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee this evening, Mr. Barrière.

You mentioned the report of the Commissioner of Official Languages. I'd like to talk to you about the survey of 11,000 public servants working across Canada that the Commissioner conducted in the winter of 2020-2021. The respondents consisted of equal numbers of anglophones and francophones.

That survey yielded some interesting findings on the scope of linguistic insecurity within the public service. The Commissioner says that linguistic insecurity is a challenge, particularly for francophones, but also for anglophones in Quebec. He also stresses the need for different but complementary solutions for francophones and anglophones, for both first- and second-language speakers.

What do you think about the approach based on the various problems that both linguistic communities experience in the public service?

[Yvon Barrière]

I've read and reread the findings of the Commissioner's survey, which are particularly interesting, and I may have summed them up earlier in a single sentence. Francophone federal employees often speak English in order to move files along, but also to ensure their anglophone colleagues understand. If I remember correctly, nearly 80% of anglophones who don't want or don't dare to speak French refrain from speaking it for fear of being judged or of not necessarily having the skills.

There are some disproportionate numbers. It's not necessarily about targets, but some anglophones find that their work slows down when they speak French. So that's the opposite of what some francophones experience. Anglophones and francophones may therefore find themselves in diametrically opposite situations.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

What do you think about the linguistic insecurity experienced by Quebec's anglophone minority?

[Yvon Barrière]

There are some potential solutions. I discussed them in my introductory remarks.

First of all, I think we have to promote and maximize language training for both the anglophone minority living in Quebec and certain persons in the national capital region and New Brunswick. The number of training courses offered during work hours should definitely be increased to improve bilingualism and reduce the linguistic insecurity that anglophone employees currently feel.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I see.

Mr. Barrière, I thought PSAC intended to conduct a survey in the near future. What kind of information do you hope to gather? What kind of questions do you want to ask? What are the objectives of that survey?

[Yvon Barrière]

You're very well informed, because no one really knows about that project. I congratulate you. You've got good intel, as they say.

Yes, together with the Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec, we propose to conduct a survey of our colleagues in the national capital region to confirm what we're currently hearing.

To be quite honest with you, before I appeared here today, we conducted a short survey, and we will definitely be working with a firm like Léger to develop it further.

We have no particular intentions, but we will ask questions related to the problem of French and official languages to determine whether the act is being complied with in respondents' workplaces so we can explore the matter further.

Quite honestly, based on the survey results, I will volunteer to go and knock on Mélanie Joly's door and deliver those results to her.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

All right.

When do you intend to conduct the survey?

[Yvon Barrière]

In the next few weeks, Ms. Lattanzio.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I see.

Do you have any further recommendations to add to the report of the Commissioner of Official Languages?

[Yvon Barrière]

We're talking about reform, and that's important. Earlier I discussed bonuses, training and second-language training. I also mentioned indigenous languages.

As regards the two official languages, we'll have to establish procedures to prevent people from experiencing this insecurity. We'll also have to acquire resources. I'm thinking of translation and all the documents that public service staff receive.

I hope that, from now on, all documents in English and French will arrive at the same time and all news releases and emails will be professionally translated. I'm told that translations are often done using Google Translate. We know that's true because we can see the grey highlighting.

In short, all these areas will have to be corrected so we can improve the language skills of staff, managers, supervisors and senior management.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Barrière.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Lattanzio.

Mr. Barrière, Mr. Beaulieu will ask you the next questions.

You have six minutes, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much for your testimony, Mr. Barrière.

This is surprising. I would've expected this kind of testimony from francophones outside Quebec.

When you talk about systemic discrimination against francophones, you're also talking about the situation in Quebec. Do I understand you correctly?

[Yvon Barrière]

Yes, absolutely.

You just have to pay attention to the words you use. I don't really like the words “against francophones,” but unfairness and discrimination clearly do exist.