Official Languages Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2021

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

It was interesting that you spoke a little more from the viewpoint of francophones in the federal public service.

It's generally anglophone pressure groups that come and represent Quebec in the Standing Committee on Official Languages. This shows how important it is to hear francophones' views as well.

You've been a public servant for a long time. Do you have any other examples of problems people encounter when working in French?

[Yvon Barrière]

I've been a federal public servant for a little more than 25 years, slightly longer than Mr. Blaney. I was really surprised to see we were still receiving directives and regulations in English. There was always a brief note, not too badly written, informing us that the translation would be available soon. Sometimes it took a few days, sometimes a few weeks. However, some things did startle me. To answer your questions regarding discrimination, I also sat on the National Health and Safety Committee for a long time.

So you'll understand where my remarks and the introduction to the speech I made earlier come from. I sat on the National Health and Safety Committee, of which representatives of the employer and the union were also members. Three unions were represented there: the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada, UCCO-SACC-CSN and PSAC.

We represented employers and employees. We discussed safety issues as they pertained to our members. At one point, I went around the table and noticed that the three union representatives were coincidentally francophones from Quebec. In fact, I have to say that, for two of those individuals, including me, the level of bilingualism was quite average. The chair and two directors representing the employer were perfectly bilingual or came from Quebec or the national capital region. Their French was impeccable. There was also a unilingual anglophone from Winnipeg. All committee meetings were conducted in English and translated from English into French.

At one point, I raised my hand and asked whether we could hold the meeting in French because 11 out of a total of 12 members spoke French. However, by default, we always began every meeting in English. Even the chair, a francophone who spoke very good English, always began the meetings in English. It was a well-established, very practical procedure and culture. Everything took place in English by default. However, we did have access to interpretation.

Getting back to the pandemic, I recently inquired about this, and the meetings of that same department's health and safety committee are now held by videoconference. They're conducted in English without interpretation.

Despite the way the committee has evolved, I can assure you that, if one francophone member speaks in French, the unilingual anglophone members don't understand what's being said. That's why those representing the union in Quebec and eastern Canada feel compelled to speak English.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Tell us briefly about the bilingualism bonus.

How do public servants perceive it? Is it adequate?

I'd like you to tell us about that.

[Yvon Barrière]

That's a very good question, Mr. Beaulieu.

The $800 figure was introduced in the 1990s. As I said earlier, we've often requested an increase, but it's always been denied. There was even a push in 2019 to do away the bonus completely in exchange perhaps for a little more training. It's definitely a problem now. The $800 figure brings an additional workload with it.

For example, during the pandemic, colleagues still ask those who get the $800 bonus to translate what's just been said. So they wind up taking on a second role, that of translator, which shouldn't be the case.

I'm thinking, for example, of people who work in call centres. They have two lines, an English one and a French one. They have a heavy workload since they have to interact in English most of the time, given the number of calls.

I'm also thinking of parole officers at the Correctional Service of Canada, who have what's commonly called a “certain work volume.” When they get the $800 bonus, their work volume… Out of 25 inmates incarcerated in Quebec penitentiaries, 17 or 18 are anglophones from western Canada or Ontario. That means extra work for those officers because they have to communicate and write in English in order to respond adequately to official language requests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Barrière and Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor for the next six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Barrière, welcome to the Standing Committee on Official Languages. I'm very pleased to be hearing you this evening. Your testimony is invaluable and will help us as we continue our study.

Obviously, I immediately want to add my voice to those wishing Minister Duclos a quick recovery. That's important. I wanted to say that because we are all colleagues here, but also because I didn't want anyone to think I was insensitive to his situation.

When he recently came to speak with us, he told us that no compromises were acceptable on official languages. Considering everything you've told us, however, I see there have been compromises during the pandemic, and perhaps even more than usual. Meetings are held where no interpretation is provided, and people sometimes speak to us in English when there's a majority of francophones around the table, as you just pointed out.

I'd like you to tell us about two things.

First, have documents written in English only been sent?

And, second, I'd like to hear your comments on the quality of translation done by subcontractors.

[Yvon Barrière]

While preparing, I contacted a number of representatives of several departments and asked them always to check the facts. To answer your first question, our employees never receive the French versions of documents within a reasonable timeframe. That's a point we've often raised and that I myself raised when I was at the department.

However, we see that departments have two ways of viewing the matter and two ways of acting. When some of them complete a study or have just reviewed directives, they say they'll wait for the translation before they send documents to everyone. I congratulate them for doing so. However, other departments initially send out documents in English, and then employees are forced to issue a reminder a few days or weeks later saying they haven't received the documents in French. They don't really feel like paying to have them translated.

As you know, English takes precedence over French in collective agreements, directives and regulations. However, if we want to offer Canadians service in both languages, our francophone employees must be well informed and know exactly what the situation is. This is all the more important in the context of the pandemic because the information often concerns health and safety.

Now, as to whether the translations are always well done, I can't give you an answer since I haven't been able to verify the two models. However, when unilingual anglophone managers addressed a mixed group of anglophones and francophones, I was told that the boss said, “Bonjour, comment ça va?” and then continued in English, as though he had ticked his French-participation box and could now move on to something else.

In many instances as well, administrative assistants are bilingual and translate news releases attached to emails and memoranda. Otherwise, as I said at the outset, people sometimes notice that the translation is somewhat awkward. You know as well as I do that applications like Google Translate don't always produce good results, and that can cause confusion in many instances.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

That's why it's important to assign the task to real professionals.

The pandemic has changed the way everyone works, including federal public servants, who have had to adjust to new circumstances. I find it appalling that people have had to pay for their high-speed Internet connection out of their own pockets. The federal government continued to pay for a basic connection, but didn't revise its policy if people required high-speed access for work. I think that shows a lack of respect.

And speaking of respect, I'd like to go back to the bilingualism bonus. I've encountered many organizations where the bilingualism bonus represented 5%, 6% or 7% of salary.

When the bilingualism bonus hasn't been raised in 30 years, what message does that send to people about the importance of bilingualism in the public service?

[Yvon Barrière]

I think that to ask the question is to answer it. It gives us the impression that it's a somewhat secondary issue. As I told you, our PSAC members devote themselves heart and soul to achieving good results. However, the $800 figure is clearly inadequate.

Mr. Boulerice, I would also add that there may be a shortage of francophone employees in the public service. Some unusual situations arise, and I would really be curious to conduct some tests and compare the English and French versions of sentences. I can respond in more detail on your next turn to speak. I'm getting the stop signal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Barrière.

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

We will go to the second round, and Mr. Dalton has the next five minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much.

I will be sharing my speaking time with Mr. Godin.

Mr. Barrière, I'll begin by thanking you for your testimony, which was very interesting.

I'm a member from western Canada, from a suburb of Vancouver. I'd like to know what you think about the situation of federal employees in the west, particularly in Vancouver and Alberta.

What do you think are the challenges facing those minority employees?

[Yvon Barrière]

Thank you, Mr. Dalton.

First of all, I'd like to thank you for the effort you're making to speak in French. You could simply have spoken English and relied on the interpretation. I admire people who make the effort.

Yes, some communities and towns near Vancouver are experiencing language problems. I heard there's a struggle under way to establish or maintain French-language schools in your beautiful province. I see that Ms. Lalonde doesn't entirely agree.

I mentioned discrimination. I think it's more a given in the west, in British Columbia. Everything's done in English. If someone raised his or her hand and wanted to speak French at a committee meeting or conference, I don't think that person would even be considered. In eastern Canada, when a department wants to hire someone to represent it on a particular issue, it very often selects a bilingual employee because that person will have to participate in a study committee or a committee organized to improve certain practices, for example.

In your case, we know that the majority of people whose mother tongue is French also speak English. That's a very well-established way of doing things in the west. Everything is unfailingly done in English. People have no opportunity to use their French, unless they sit on a national committee and occasionally speak with people from the national capital region, Quebec or New Brunswick.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Do you think there are enough people there who speak both languages to serve the public in those regions?

[Yvon Barrière]

Do you mean just the west or across Canada?

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

More the west because I'm the only person on this committee who is a representative of the regions west of Manitoba.

[Yvon Barrière]

I made a few checks. I'll answer you by discussing a message that was forwarded to me. It's a message that a public servant sent to individuals from eastern Canada. So you can imagine what the situation might be in the west. The message, which really surprised me, is dated December 23, 2020. Here's a passage from it:

Please provide the following information to facilitate initial contact with the pay unit of the [department]. Please note that there are a limited number of departmental compensation advisors who only speak French, which may cause minor delays in making appointments.

If that's the situation in eastern Canada, it's definitely worse—even though I don't like that word—in western Canada

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to turn the floor over to Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Although I don't have a lot of time at my disposal, I'm going to take a few seconds to acknowledge Jean-Yves Duclos, my colleague from the Quebec City region. Some people serve our Parliament in a manner that goes beyond partisanship. I'm thinking good thoughts for Mr. Duclos, who is a gentleman, and I wish him a speedy recovery.

Mr. Barrière, you mentioned systemic discrimination. That's a shocking expression, but one that probably reflects the actual situation. You discussed the bilingualism bonus. As I see it, it doesn't work and hasn't been raised for many years.

Could we not address the problem the other way around, by requiring that senior authorities be subject to an obligation of result, failing which their salary, compensation or bonus might potentially be reduced?

Earlier you talked about people who start off a conference by saying, “Bonjour et bienvenue.” They feel that's enough and immediately switch to English.

Doesn't the fact that a bonus is offered diminish the importance of francophones? Shouldn't we look at the problem the other way round by requiring senior authorities to produce results and imposing compliance obligations?

[Yvon Barrière]

I entirely agree with you regarding obligations of result. While you were speaking, I was thinking of a time when language skills in staffing processes could be imperative or non-imperative. That was often much less discriminatory because a unilingual francophone could apply for the position. If that person was the one with the best skills, he or she could be offered the position conditionally on taking training for one year to become perfectly bilingual and thereby to meet the language requirements of the position. The linguistic profile could be BBB or CCC, for example. That was one way of proceeding.

For our people to be bilingual, and to have access to new positions and new challenges, perhaps they should be offered a bonus greater than $800. The amount of the bonus should be an incentive for everyone, anglophone and francophone alike, wishing to improve and become bilingual.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Barrière. That's all the time we have.

We are now on the second round, and I want to inform the members of the committee that there will not be a third round—with five-minute periods allotted to both parties—as we must set aside some time to adopt the budget for our next study.

For the moment, I will turn the floor over to Ms. Martinez Ferrada for the next five minutes.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Barrière, thank you for being with us this evening.

I too would like to acknowledge my colleague Mr. Duclos and his entire family. I hope he recovers quickly and comes back to us soon, perhaps even to this committee. Why not?

First, I'd like to comment briefly on systemic discrimination. I would prefer instead to discuss an organizational culture in which we should really develop reflexive responses to the English and French question. Those responses probably don't exist at the present time. The notion of systemic discrimination raises several questions. I'm going to make a comment on the subject that, I honestly admit, makes me somewhat uncomfortable.

Mr. Barrière, many union organizations, including the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada and the Canadian Association of Professional Employees, as well as the Public Service Commission, recommend better language training in the second official language. You discussed this matter at length, but I'd nevertheless like to go back to it because I'm convinced that, if we want to promote linguistic duality in the public service, we need to conduct a language review that is based on a new second-language training framework.

What do you think of the idea of establishing a new second-language training framework?

[Yvon Barrière]

Ms. Martinez Ferrada, first, I want to tell you that I definitely did not want to bump heads with anyone, including you, when I used words that had quite a serious connotation. That's especially true of the word “systemic,” which is widely used these days. However, I wanted to draw a parallel. It's never as significant as systemic racism, but it's nevertheless very much present. Your comparison with culture is quite apt.

As to whether we would do well to acquire the resources to promote bilingualism, I would emphasize that PSAC and I are entirely in agreement on that process. I believe that, to achieve our ambitions and establish a bilingual public service, we must have the necessary means. To improve the services we offer to Canadian citizens, there must be training, education and greater awareness for everyone.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Barrière.

As you know, the language reform that the minister revealed last week entails several proposals, and you named a few. They include a new second-language training framework and a review of second-language evaluation standards, particularly for supervisory positions. If the senior public service is truly bilingual, that will be felt within the organizations. Consequently, there also has to be a review of official languages qualifications criteria, which you briefly discussed.

Do you agree that these measures will help strengthen the current structure? Promoting both languages within the public service must be automatic. That's precisely what we have to work on.

[Yvon Barrière]

That's definitely what it takes.

It always depends on the example that's set. I can't disagree with what you're telling me. Currently, however, we often use the statistics included in the Official Languages Act. For example, it provides that such and such a department in a particular region must have a minimum of so many bilingual persons. We do our best to work within that framework.

Here's an example from my former department—I'm going to reveal where I used to work—Correctional Service Canada. I was always surprised to see that we couldn't find a plumber or an electrician to work at the Port-Cartier Institution, near Sept-Îles. Why couldn't we find anyone?

We needed bilingual employees for staffing purposes and to meet the criteria of the Official Languages Act. No one in that line of work near Sept-Îles is bilingual. Consequently, senior management must set an example in order to improve bilingualism at all levels.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you both for your remarks.

I now turn the floor over to Mr. Beaulieu for two and a half minutes.