Official Languages Committee on March 25th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Imbeault, you have between 15 and 20 seconds left.

[Louise Imbeault]

I don't know the answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Fine, thank you.

Mr. Arseneault, your time is up. Thank you.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We'll move on to Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for six minutes.

[The Clerk]

Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, Madam Clerk?

[The Clerk]

I would like to advise you that the lights are flashing and the bell is ringing. I believe your voting application should indicate this and that you should suspend the meeting, unless you get unanimous consent to continue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I do indeed see that the bell is ringing. I don't know if we have 15 minutes.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

We have 30 minutes, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

It is up to you, members. It is 5:17 p.m.

Do you want us to continue the meeting until 5:30 p.m.?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

That's fine.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Perhaps we could finish this round of questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes. Since we have two six-minute rounds left, we will use them. That will give us time to vote.

Thank you very much.

We'll go back to Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Good afternoon. I thank the witnesses for their presentations.

I would like to begin by addressing the representatives of the Public Service Alliance of Canada.

We had the opportunity to have a representative from the Public Service Alliance, but for Quebec. His testimony was quite amazing. This witness was saying much the same thing as you, particularly about the difficulty of working in French. He even said that he had observed, in terms of language, a deeply rooted systemic discrimination in the federal government. He pointed out that it was taken for granted that everything was done in English first, and then in French.

Do you agree?

[Alex Silas]

Yes. Obviously, being a French-speaking public servant is a disadvantage. Often, in a hiring process, a unilingual English-speaking candidate is given a position and then trained to become bilingual. This does not work the other way around. Indeed, a unilingual French-speaking candidate is not offered the same opportunity to be considered for a position and then receive training in English.

Certainly, on paper, the rules seem fair. In practice, however, we see that things are different. Often, meetings are conducted squarely in English, even though the majority of people, whether meeting in person or virtually, are francophones. The meeting is held in English because that's the practice; that's what people think they should do.

It is clear that being a francophone in the public service is a disadvantage.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

It's illogical because it's much easier, especially outside Quebec, to find people who know English than it is to find people who know French. It should be the other way around. If unilingual francophones are hired, they will definitely be in the minority. At the very least, we can always ask someone who speaks English to take over. We can also encourage training.

We were told that there was a real problem in the staffing process. We were told about the knowledge requirements. We were even told that the bilingualism test was much easier for anglophones than for francophones.

Do you agree?

[Alex Silas]

Yes, absolutely. Our members tell us that the level of difficulty of the test isn't the same for francophone candidates as it is for anglophone candidates.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You said, and this was consistent with Mr. Barrière's observation, that during meetings, especially when they were virtual, managers often spoke to people in English. You even said earlier that correspondence was sometimes sent to you in English, that you asked that it be sent in French, but that your request was denied. This is really a violation of the Official Languages Act.

What can you do in cases like this? Do you routinely submit a complaint when it happens?

That said, if employees file a complaint, they should be a little afraid of reprisals.

How do you see this situation? What action could be taken?

[Alex Silas]

We work case by case. We advise our locals to file a complaint or grievance where appropriate.

From a broader perspective, we propose increasing the bilingualism bonus so that it provides greater incentive for public servants to work in both languages. The bilingualism bonus is only $800 and hasn't been increased since the 1990s. This amount doesn't have the same value today as it did 30 years ago. That could be one solution.

Another solution would be to offer more language training and to stop outsourcing that training. It should be offered by the public service so that federal employees are trained by other federal employees.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I think it was you, Ms. Fortin, who said earlier that we should stop outsourcing language training. Could you tell us a little more about that? Is it because the training offered by subcontractors is of lower quality? What's the rationale for your recommendations?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Fortin, you have a minute and five seconds to answer the question.

[Chantal Fortin]

Not only is the quality lower, but the context isn't the same. The federal government has its own jargon, and it's very difficult for subcontractors to use that particular language in training. So there's a quality problem in several respects.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Have you noticed recently that there has been more outsourcing?

[Chantal Fortin]

Yes, there is more outsourcing in the public service in general, not just in language training.